Oink

If we leave in the common market we might as well just bend over and be the girl dog in the relationship of the US.

Former Lancastrian

You mean like Canada then

Cape Blue

Isn't Greece's problem the Euro, rather than the EU?

Shard

Yes it is. If they could come out of the Euro, they could adopt a different path (still with massive financial problems, but probably a less austere time scale). However, they don't have the national authority to opt out of it, it has to be something the other Euro states agree, and those states have the "best interests" of the EU in mind. This is the loss of sovereignty which Britain is keen to avoid.

Almost Canadian

Greece's problem was that it spent more than it could afford to.

orly

I think if there was some sort of "American Continents Union" that Canada was a part of, we'd all want to leave that too. Unless it's cool to take $75m/day (which is roughly what the UK pumps into the EU) and send it to places like Peru and Honduras. Unless of course all the Peruvians and Hondurans have arrived here already to take up Canadian healthcare, education and benefits

Shard

Not a valid analogy I'm afraid. Britain has far more trade with Europe than Canada has with South America. Britain also has considerable expat communities in Europe so gains residency benefits which are far less likely to be taken up by Canadians in South America.

However, the cost of being in the EU is an issue that warrants further debate. Amongst many other things.

orly

Not talking about trade. Talking about the actual gripes people in the UK have with the EU - namely paying in a redistribution fortune and then having no control over the movement of migrants but being legally obliged to look after them.

In the example I posted Canada would have exactly the same problem. Probably even worse.

The EU is a flawed idea and the sooner it collapses the better for everyone involved.

Mikeypm

I think there grand plans for the Athens Olympics helped them piddle away a lot of money. I watched a tv programme about bridges and all sorts of things unrelated to the Olympics that they decideded were crucial and built. It was not small scale construction and not expense was spared. Add to that that most people in Greece had public sector jobs it was not if, but when Greece were going to run out of money.

Shard

The principle aim behind what is now the EU was to increase economic integration as a means to discourage wars between the member states. Quite a long history of that, and it seems to be working because it's almost unthinkable for our generation in Western Europe to contemplate war with other members.

I say almost because if you look at the resentment and violence growing in Greece, it gives a hint at how deep and divided the historical nationalisms actually are. Perhaps this is more a of Balkan problem than a Western Europe problem (look at Yugoslavia 20 years ago) but on the the EU does bring a higher degree of European stability.

Britain may exit, but a collapse of the EU ain't going to happen. So it becomes a question of whether Britain is tightly integrated or loosely integrated.

DaveLovesDee

It seems to me that Britain wants to be a part of the EU in a similar way that France has/had membership of NATO. They want all of the benefits of membership, without many of the rersponsibilities. I agree that our relationship with the EU could use some adjusting, but I don't think we'd truly know whether we're better off in or out without a full and accurate disclosure to the public of the costs and benefits of both choices.

Even then, the real world after may change for better or worse.

Beaverstate

Interesting, a complete 50/50 view. What would your vote be?

DaveLovesDee

In this poll, I voted that I didn't care. There weasn't an option for not enough information to make a well-informed decision.

At least if Call Me Dave is re-elected, and does follow thorough with the referendum, we'll have had time to hopefully properly research our own opinions. There'll also very likely be proaganda, half-truths and spin from most of the political parties on what they think is best for us.

I don't think any political party is any better than the others.

Almost Canadian

This also enables people in the UK to move within the EU and have the State they relocate to be "legally obliged to look after them". That's a good thing, is it not?

Care to explain why? Did you not: benefit from not having to pay import tariffs upon goods from the EU; having superb consumer protection legislation; having superb workers' legislation?

Shard

I left "need more information option" out as the reality is every single person needs more information. It hasn't been properly debated or considered since 1973. It's a complex issue, without a doubt, but I think it's an interesting exercise to make a choice. As I said up thread, this isn't the ACTUAL referendum!