Almost Canadian

I believe that workers should be able to move as freely as they wish. I also believe that the EU has things just about correct when it comes to recognising the qualifications of each others' nationals. They just need to force the French to comply

Alan2005

Most EU immigrants are white so it's probably not that much of a problem.

Shard

It has nothing to do with race, it's to do with inadequate social infrastructure, and competition for jobs.

Hawk13

Awesome comment, coming from you.

Alan2005

There's no fixed number of jobs. More people = more jobs.

Alan2005

Wat?

Shard

Tell that to all the unemployed or underemployed tradesmen!

The point however is not about immigration (which can argued for or against) the point is about control of immigration.

And although there is, in theory, no fixed number of jobs, there are often great time lags before new jobs are created. Particularly where employment controls (minimum wage, workers rights) exist and when a country is in recession. To say more people = more jobs is a massive over simplification.

Alan2005

Sure, there is always friction while the market adjusts. The problem is that government intervention will always cause more problems long term - that tradesman will still be in business, but now you're paying twice as much to get your tap fixed for no reason other than the state stopped somebody cheaper coming round your house.

Also you could just as well argue for the government to limit technology as that puts people out of jobs in the short term too.

Shard

For the public an oversupply of plumbers is a good thing (lower prices). For the plumbers, especially the British ones with a British family cost base, the oversupply is not good.

If you go to a pure employment situation, say retail jobs for youth, then it is the local kids that are out-competed by clever Europeans for entry level work.

As for the government limiting technology? Never said anything about that.

Alan2005

Then they should do something else or provide some extra value that foreign plumbers don't to justify their costs.

Again, they should find something else to do.

In both cases the state shouldn't be resorting to protectionism to keep these people in work; it should be easing their transition into other more productive areas. The best long term policy is to train/educate people in areas where there are true skills shortages rather than artificial ones created by policy.

But the result is the same. If you are against immigration because it causes economic hardship for some then you are against technology because it does the exact same thing. Some people lose their jobs; sure new different jobs are created but that doesn't help those that have lost theirs.

Oink

The amount that China is investing in higher education both home and abroad now should open a few eyes in the west. On the economic battlefield, China believes that technology created by new knowledge, is the main weapon. Britain's future is not to worry about the domestic plumber market, it should be creating knowledge. It's how the west gained it dominance and the lack of it will be its servitude. The Germans have the right idea.

Shard

Again, I'm not against immigration per se, but I think an ability to control it is important. Your analysis doesn't consider the downsides of economic displacement, it's easy to assert everyone should retrain, far more problematic to put it into practice. And this is focussing only on the employment aspect. Add to that a need to provide education, medical care, and sometimes housing and you can see the need for control. Canada, after all controls the number of immigrants it takes, all countries do. The issue with EU is that Britain, a country of 65 million, is now open to another 250 million, some of whom have major economic incentives to relocate to Britain.

Technology is a completely separate issue. It does displace certain jobs, but as you suggest, it creates others (generally higher up the value chain). Technology enhances the economy through efficiency gains and higher value in a way that swapping domestic tradesmen for foreign tradesmen does not.

Shard

Britain's doing that too, and if British universities are anything to go by, educating a large number of Chinese at the same time.

Alan2005

It's exactly the same in practice. It creates jobs higher up the chain, but these aren't filled by the same people and there are a lot less of them. The people that lose their jobs really have to do something else instead.

Lower costs is efficiency. If a foreign tradesman costs half as much as a domestic one I can a) get twice as much done or b) spend the saved half elsewhere in the economy.

In practice immigration from the EU hasn't caused all these problems you claim. Sure tradesman now have to be realistic, but last time I looked there wasn't widespread unemployment caused by foreign workers under cutting the locals. Compared to government cost cutting and manufacturing being moved elsewhere it's probably not that significant. I also suspect the total number of jobs (available or filled) in the UK is higher now than it was 10 years ago.

orly

Really? So according to you there's about 850 million seconds in a year? How about you check your maths before commenting again? You're so far from correct that it's hilarious. Especially when you started your comment with a troll attempt.

The figure in my first post was off but in this case my maths is right on the "money". I can't even work out how you came up with your figures because they're so massively wrong.

Better luck next time.