The first mistake in the bible!
Jun 26th 2007 | 10:35 pm
#481
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Re: The first mistake in the bible!
And then there's the question of how do the stillborn end up in heaven? Those who die in childhood? Are they condemned to eternity just as they were when they died? Because, if they are not, their adult "history" is fictional.
You can't win any argument with the religious by posing these unanswerable questions - the sophisticated jesuit type have all sorts of arguments honed through the ages which - to them at least - dispose of your objections, and the rest just smile sweetly and accept that god knows best and it's not right to question him or his purpose.
You can't win any argument with the religious by posing these unanswerable questions - the sophisticated jesuit type have all sorts of arguments honed through the ages which - to them at least - dispose of your objections, and the rest just smile sweetly and accept that god knows best and it's not right to question him or his purpose.
Jun 26th 2007 | 10:38 pm
#482
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Posts: 10,158
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
And then there's the question of how do the stillborn end up in heaven? Those who die in childhood? Are they condemned to eternity just as they were when they died? Because, if they are not, their adult "history" is fictional.
You can't win any argument with the religious by posing these unanswerable questions - the sophisticated jesuit type have all sorts of arguments honed through the ages which - to them at least - dispose of your objections, and the rest just smile sweetly and accept that god knows best and it's not right to question him or his purpose.
You can't win any argument with the religious by posing these unanswerable questions - the sophisticated jesuit type have all sorts of arguments honed through the ages which - to them at least - dispose of your objections, and the rest just smile sweetly and accept that god knows best and it's not right to question him or his purpose.
He really needs to get with it.
Jun 26th 2007 | 11:18 pm
#483
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,383
From: 'stralia
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
LOL.
Yes, the purpose being at the point where Jesus shows up, he re-unites the soul with said bodies and off they toddle to his house, where presumably they have a few beers.
If Jesus did come in 1914, and created his new world order, then in my opinion, he did a fairly lousy job of it.
Failure to plan properly.
Very poor.
Yes, the purpose being at the point where Jesus shows up, he re-unites the soul with said bodies and off they toddle to his house, where presumably they have a few beers.
If Jesus did come in 1914, and created his new world order, then in my opinion, he did a fairly lousy job of it.
Failure to plan properly.
Very poor.
Jun 26th 2007 | 11:37 pm
#486
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,158
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
<whistling smiley>
I didn't go to church since I was born for nowt you know.
(Admittedly, it was only for 21 years)
PS - I'm used to woolly thinking. My dad's a vicar and had a flock for years.
Last edited by iPom; Jun 26th 2007 at 11:41 pm.
Jun 27th 2007 | 12:00 am
#487
Suncream, I need suncream
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,316
From: Sydney
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Sorry, double post...
Last edited by northerner; Jun 27th 2007 at 12:03 am.
Jun 27th 2007 | 12:03 am
#488
Suncream, I need suncream
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,316
From: Sydney
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
People who die do not go to heaven, do not become angels, but they wait in the ground until they are 'raised up' ...
Jesus talks about the 'last day' in John 6, where it's linked with the resurrection of the dead...
Sure, it's not called the 'second coming' in the bible, but it is called a number of other things, the principle understanding being that the dead remain here on the earth and at the point of the return of Jesus, they are 'raised up' with him where they will live in his 'house forever' ... (That's in John 14.3)
As far as I know, no-where in the bible does it say that the dead go to heaven.
Jesus talks about the 'last day' in John 6, where it's linked with the resurrection of the dead...
Sure, it's not called the 'second coming' in the bible, but it is called a number of other things, the principle understanding being that the dead remain here on the earth and at the point of the return of Jesus, they are 'raised up' with him where they will live in his 'house forever' ... (That's in John 14.3)
As far as I know, no-where in the bible does it say that the dead go to heaven.
I understand the vesres etc you are talking about to be talking about the resurection of our body on the return of Jesus, rather that the spirit on our death in this life.
Graham
Jun 27th 2007 | 12:08 am
#489
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Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Comment. Ok. Just because you think the bible is very well researched and even if I were to believe every story in the bible as the truth, and what I mean by the truth is that it is indeed written when it says by who said it etc. It could very well be 100% accurate, but that doesn't mean what it's writing about is true. When the bible says something like "And God spoke unto xxxx" what does that prove? How do you know god spoke to him? All it is is an account of hearsay. I'm not explaining too well I know so here goes again...
If I were to say to John, I've spoken to god an he says...'insert some wisdom here'... John subsequently writes up my conversation with god in a book called the bible. after 2000 years of picking and dissecting the story, theologians prove catagorically that yes I did indeed say what god told me to John and he did in turn write it all down perfectly. This still does not prove that god did actually speak to me! Just that I thought he had, was I mad, delusional, Schitzo or what?
I hope that explained my problem with all your proof, if it proves anything, it proves the story tellers recanted a story correctly, not that the substance of the stories are true, especially when so much of the bible seems to be made up of 'God says.....'
Sorry I just need to add, even courts nowadays do not count hearsay as proof or evidence.
If I were to say to John, I've spoken to god an he says...'insert some wisdom here'... John subsequently writes up my conversation with god in a book called the bible. after 2000 years of picking and dissecting the story, theologians prove catagorically that yes I did indeed say what god told me to John and he did in turn write it all down perfectly. This still does not prove that god did actually speak to me! Just that I thought he had, was I mad, delusional, Schitzo or what?
I hope that explained my problem with all your proof, if it proves anything, it proves the story tellers recanted a story correctly, not that the substance of the stories are true, especially when so much of the bible seems to be made up of 'God says.....'
Sorry I just need to add, even courts nowadays do not count hearsay as proof or evidence.
We are able to research the historical and archaeological findings to decide if the bible was written when/where it claims to have been written. I think that fact has been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The real question you seem to be asking is "Is the bible true?"....which is why at the beginning of this thread I raised the question of prophecy.
Below are a list of some of the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus... the New Testament link beside them for your cross reference
Jesus would die a humiliating death Psalm 22, Isiah 53 involving....
Rejection Isiah 53:3 John 1:10-11
Betrayal by a friend Psalm 41:9 Luke 22:3-4, John 13:18
Be mocked Psalm 22:7-8 Matthew 27:31
Be beaten Isiah 52:14 Matthew 27:30
His side be pieced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34
Piercing of his hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:31
Be crucified with thieves Isiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
No broken bones Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36
Rise from the dead Psalm 16:10 Mark 16:6 Acts 2:31
Ascend to Heaven Psalm 68:18 Acts 1:9
I can understand where you are coming from with the whole "rantings of a mad man" etc, but the very fact that these prophecies are fulfilled 100's of years later speaks volumes does it not?
How about you come up with a convincing arguement that these are not prophecies?
Jun 27th 2007 | 12:39 am
#490
Thread Starter
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Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Jesus would die a humiliating death Psalm 22, Isiah 53 involving....
Rejection Isiah 53:3 John 1:10-11
Betrayal by a friend Psalm 41:9 Luke 22:3-4, John 13:18
Be mocked Psalm 22:7-8 Matthew 27:31
Be beaten Isiah 52:14 Matthew 27:30
His side be pieced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34
Piercing of his hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:31
Be crucified with thieves Isiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
No broken bones Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36
Rise from the dead Psalm 16:10 Mark 16:6 Acts 2:31
Ascend to Heaven Psalm 68:18 Acts 1:9
I can understand where you are coming from with the whole "rantings of a mad man" etc, but the very fact that these prophecies are fulfilled 100's of years later speaks volumes does it not?
How about you come up with a convincing arguement that these are not prophecies?
Rejection Isiah 53:3 John 1:10-11
Betrayal by a friend Psalm 41:9 Luke 22:3-4, John 13:18
Be mocked Psalm 22:7-8 Matthew 27:31
Be beaten Isiah 52:14 Matthew 27:30
His side be pieced Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34
Piercing of his hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:31
Be crucified with thieves Isiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
No broken bones Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36
Rise from the dead Psalm 16:10 Mark 16:6 Acts 2:31
Ascend to Heaven Psalm 68:18 Acts 1:9
I can understand where you are coming from with the whole "rantings of a mad man" etc, but the very fact that these prophecies are fulfilled 100's of years later speaks volumes does it not?
How about you come up with a convincing arguement that these are not prophecies?
Psalms 22, I can't see any prophecies there. I must be missinterpreting your numbering system, it's titled 'A Cry of Anguish and a song of praise'. It's mostly in the present and past tense, no sight of a prophecy there.
Isiah 53:3 once again all past tense, 'The people reply "who whould have believed what we NOW report". then...We despised him and rejected him.
I'm sorry wren, I was going to read all of your list but I can't see any prophecy in the first two so I'll stop now as clearly you people are able to read things into what isn't said. Either that or I clearly have no idea what you mean by prophecy.
Please quote me a bit of the bible that you think and I might agree is a prophecy, I've got my bible to hand so I can read it too.
Jun 27th 2007 | 12:47 am
#491
Australia's Doorman
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,057
From: The Shoalhaven, New South Wales, Australia
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Ermmm ... hold on Tonto. That fact has most definitely not been proved in any way shape or form. How did we suddenly get from "it's all a load of old bollocks" to "proved beyond a shadow of a doubt"?
Allow me to demonstrate.
Some 'real' text from the bible, "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men" - I say that refers to David Copperfield - and one of the great tricks he did during his show.
Prove to me that it doesn't.
We've already come up with 50 convincing arguments in this thread, which you've completely ignored. I know 'faith' is blind ... but you're not doing yourself any favours.
Jun 27th 2007 | 12:58 am
#492
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Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Ok Thought I'd try again with an easier one. Being one to not give up easily.
I've read Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34
John is clearly telling it as he saw it and so might be true, But thats not a prophacy so I'm guessing wren intends this to be the part that Zechariah 500+ years earlier forsaw, so I went and read up Zechariah 12:10....
The only reference to a possible pieced side is where it says "They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death" thats it, It doesn't say who gets stabbed or when, it vaguely says where. No mention of someone getting pieced in the side and definately doesn't say it's the son of god.
You know the more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced. It's like the believers can just churn out a chapter and verse of the bible as though 'There you are, proof'. I wonder if they rely on us non believers not actually looking it up to challenge them. I've just read Zechariah chapter 12 4 times now just to be sure and I'm not 100% sure it's even attempting to be a prophacy.
It's like the quotes given by believers are sound bites taken out of context to try and prove a point.. "They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death" means Jesus is going to get pieced in the side 500 years later! Sorry I just don't see it.
I've read Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34
John is clearly telling it as he saw it and so might be true, But thats not a prophacy so I'm guessing wren intends this to be the part that Zechariah 500+ years earlier forsaw, so I went and read up Zechariah 12:10....
The only reference to a possible pieced side is where it says "They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death" thats it, It doesn't say who gets stabbed or when, it vaguely says where. No mention of someone getting pieced in the side and definately doesn't say it's the son of god.
You know the more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced. It's like the believers can just churn out a chapter and verse of the bible as though 'There you are, proof'. I wonder if they rely on us non believers not actually looking it up to challenge them. I've just read Zechariah chapter 12 4 times now just to be sure and I'm not 100% sure it's even attempting to be a prophacy.
It's like the quotes given by believers are sound bites taken out of context to try and prove a point.. "They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death" means Jesus is going to get pieced in the side 500 years later! Sorry I just don't see it.
Jun 27th 2007 | 1:08 am
#493
Australia's Doorman
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,057
From: The Shoalhaven, New South Wales, Australia
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Just found a very telling article on this website. Which says that it's "Reforming Christian Education for the Third Millennium." Born again Christians or some such. The site appears to exist to give useful ammunition for Christians in their battle against the heathen masses.
In this article, the question that's asked is "Can you provide some evidence for the historical accuracy of the Bible?"
The answer is hilarious. This Christian site, in answer to the above question says, "The Bible makes many claims about historical events, and each of these claims could be subject to questioning by skeptics of the Bible’s historical accuracy. As Christians, our most powerful proof of the historical accuracy of scripture is that scripture is God’s Word. Because God does not lie, we can be sure that the Bible is accurate and truthful history. However, this proof is unlikely to convince those who are steeped in stubborn unbelief."
So to summarise - the bible is the personal opinions of an all powerful being for whom there is not one single piece of hard evidence - the all powerful being for whom there is not single piece of hard evidence never lies - therefore the bible is right.
Or, more simply, "It's right, because it's right."
I'm sold. Hallelujah.
In this article, the question that's asked is "Can you provide some evidence for the historical accuracy of the Bible?"
The answer is hilarious. This Christian site, in answer to the above question says, "The Bible makes many claims about historical events, and each of these claims could be subject to questioning by skeptics of the Bible’s historical accuracy. As Christians, our most powerful proof of the historical accuracy of scripture is that scripture is God’s Word. Because God does not lie, we can be sure that the Bible is accurate and truthful history. However, this proof is unlikely to convince those who are steeped in stubborn unbelief."
So to summarise - the bible is the personal opinions of an all powerful being for whom there is not one single piece of hard evidence - the all powerful being for whom there is not single piece of hard evidence never lies - therefore the bible is right.
Or, more simply, "It's right, because it's right."
I'm sold. Hallelujah.
Jun 27th 2007 | 1:13 am
#494
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 65,493
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
I wonder if the sales of the bible has gone up any because of this thread. Or theft from hotel drawers. Have an non believers seen the light yet, afterall the proof is overwhelming
Jun 27th 2007 | 1:17 am
#495
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Posts: 413
Re: The first mistake in the bible!
Please could you recap on those 50 reasons? I haven't seen one convincing one yet.
Tonto
