What I really don't understand is, if it's God's word and therefore the truth, why is it so ambiguous and why have there been so many changes in church policy over the centuries.

You'd think if God was saying it as it is, there could be no misinterpretation.

There's 25 pages of (mostly) well reasoned arguments. But since you ignore those arguments you can't answer, here's a nice article of 15 good reasons.

Fill your boots.

Arkon,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's good to sensibly question things like you have. I think when people blindly accept things that's when things can get hairy.
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Essential oil bath - that sounds toooo yummmy right now!

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Love Vege
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I don't understand your explanation. IMO, it's fairly simple. You die, the body goes into the ground, it goes no-where... knows nothing and that's that.
There IS no spirit... spirit and soul... as you probably know... are two different things in biblical teaching ... So which do you mean? Look it up ... it's VERY different.

We are not spirit beings... Angels are, according to the bible, but humans are not.

So if our soul goes anywhere... (show me in the bible where it talks about souls going to heaven and I'll be your friend forever) where does it go?

And regardless of you not being Anglican, I would expect any person claiming to be Christian to know the Nicene creed. It's up there with the Lord's prayer. If you don't know it, smack yourself this instant.
I was merely using the Anglican example because it's said at every Evensong (3pm, Liverpool Anglican Cathedral) on a Sunday. I can actually say it backwards... Now that's fun.

So seeing as we're here, let's talk about the soul.

Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

And if we really want to discuss what a soul is, let's look at the second Genesis creation story...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice when god breathed life into Adam, he became a living soul ... At no point does it say that God PUT a soul INTO Adam!

You do not have a ghost-like immortal soul that survives your physical death. Life is what makes you a soul. Without life you perish.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Death returns you to the dust, in a totally unconscious state. Nothing survives after death.


Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.


And then we have Jesus's own words on death... apparently. I'm sure you know this:

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


My point was that the body dies. At no point does the bible say it goes to heaven. Once Jesus comes again, everyone gets resurrected and as a result, the soul once more exists... according to the bible.

It is the Catholic church which believe that the soul lingers on (my time spent being engaged to an ex Catholic priest was highly educational)

They particularly like this verse:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And then, there's the whole 1 Corinthians thing (I quite like 1 Corinthians) ...

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen...

So, has Jesus come again? 1 Corinthians tells us he hasn't.

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

I like that one.

And just for fun, let's have one of my favourite bible verses, because it's so funny, yet has nothing to do with the subject...

It's Daniel, Ch.5, v6

'Then the king's countenance was changed in him, and his thoughts troubled him; and the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.'



Ever seen the movie, 'The Hand'?

Ipom, thanks for partly clarifying something I've never understood, which is why Christians wish to have a complete body buried as it will be judged on a given day in the future (although rather decomposed it should be whole, hence a lot of the upset at the Alderhay Hospital scandal where organs were removed from babies), and the extrememly widespread belief that the soul of the dead goes straight to Heaven or Hell, whence in the first instance the person is "looking down on us" and may even protect us or other people who subsequently die. On my rare visits to church eg the death of a friend's child, the vicar told us that the child was with Jesus.

[quote=Hutch;4976017]There's 25 pages of (mostly) well reasoned arguments.[/quote)


Have read all the posts and haven't seen one yet in that there is a reasonable arguement against there being a god. All I've seen so far is intense hostility and objection to the possibility that there may be a god.

Presented so far have been arguements for other theories of creation etc, but none that would make a believer consider that there may not be a god.

Basically Hutch, you have made your mind up... so why don't you present the case against a god in your words... not some link to a website?

'Mostly' being the operative word. I'm not sure I'd trust much with 'www.american...' in the title. Not even on the price of milk.

Okay. Here's my case.



God is good.

Ah, yes, that's sad. But I guess vicars and other religious leaders say these comforting things, because thinking that your dead child isn't with the lovely man with the smiley eyes, long hair and robes isn't so nice.
Quite literally, we are a soul. Once we die, the soul is gone and we know nothing.
I find that quite nice actually.

I think it's Paul (? - I really can't be bothered to look it up - perhaps northerner can?) who talks about the time he will be dead to the time Jesus comes to resurrect him will pass in the blink of an eye.

I like to think of death and resurrection as the same effect as anesthetic... one minute you're going under and the next minute, you're awake, yet it feels like no time has passed at all.

And this is a perfect reason not to worry about dying. Just going to sleep and ceasing to exist sounds pretty peachy to me. It's merely the method of delivery which is the most worrying.

As for the Alderhay thing, I really don't think Jesus is so mean that he'd ignore a child.
He says in Matthew 19, v14...

"Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them,
for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Wow - really showing your thirst for knowledge now, aren't you. It's Scientific American, not The Watchtower, mate.

ROFL.

Watchtower is one of my favourite publications. I'll have nowt said against t'Watchtower... I love all those pictures of lions lying down with lambs...

And the blonde Jesus. Now's he's a good looking guy.
No indication he was probably small, Jewish looking etc.

Love it.

Hutch,

Do you not think it's man's greed and outright, undeniable evil which has led to things like this? To sit back and say 'well if there is a God, he should sort it out' is saying that 'as a human being I want no free will whatsoever, I wish I didn't have to make any decisions of my own.'

If it's up to me to make my own choices, why do I need a God?

These are mainly rubbish. The NT writers were absolutely obsessed with finding any little link to OT 'prophesies' and the connections they draw are so weak, it's laughable.
It's the same as people who interpret Nostradamus's stuff and link any tenuous thing to some happening in the news or history.
His quatrains are so obscure that they can be interpreted to predict any occurrence you so choose.
Poor bloke was probably epileptic. Poor fella.

[QUOTE=wren;4976095] What I would find possibly convinving would be if the Bible had references to things which were unknown at the time but which subsequently made sense - perhaps referring to the vast size of the Universe, DNA, good old dinosaurs, bacterial infection...however as far as I can see it is a product of the knowledge at the time it was written. The process of conception itself was only vaguely understood up until the 19th century.