RoadWarriorFromLP

That's the sort of response that I would have expected from a dealer, and it is somewhat misleading.

-Edmunds and Kelly are completely legitimate sources of data. Anyone who has bought a car and has done a line-by-line comparison of the car and its options knows that the numbers correlate. So it is misleading to insinuate that they are not reliable, when they are accurate, useful and reliable sources. (Dealers simply hate them because they lose negotiation leverage when the customer is equipped with this pricing data and knows what to do with it.)

-Yes, a legitimate invoice should not include advertising or PDI fees. But the "invoices" presented by dealers to customers often do include some sort of fat. That is not the same as the destination fee, which is on the window sticker and includes no profit to the dealer.

-Of course, the holdback is my business, I use it as a basis for understanding what I can do to reduce the purchase price. But no worries -- this information is also readily available from Edmunds, and is typically 2-3% of invoice, MSRP or a combination of the two, depending upon the manufacturer. That alone puts several hundred dollars into your pocket for each sale.

CaliforniaBride

Just got a Ford F-150. I would recommend a 2006 model they're reduced so much that they are cheaper than a second-hand 2005!!! (Not that the salesman wanted to tell us that). The cab comfortably seats 5 but can seat up to 6. It's great for lugging everything back from Home Depot!

Ray

Uhhhhh!! I would have though a 1996 would be cheaper than a 2005
but thats just me

gruffbrown

LOL do you want to edit that?

Angry White Pyjamas

Follow the herd: Buy an F150. Baaaaaa.

TRPardoe

I have never claimed impartiality, just knowledge of the facts.

You see, I do not fit the mould of the legendary car salesman. I don't lie to my customers and I don't waste their entire day in negotiations. In fact, I prefer it if I never see them except to sign contracts. My whole department works that way. Maybe it is why we are by far the largest Ford "Business Preferred" dealer in the US.

This week I delivered two flatbed trucks, 530 miles away, to a customer I had never met and who had already sent me the signed contracts. I went along as the chase car to bring the delivery drivers back so that I could meet the buyer for the first time. That was $85,000 worth of business.

I simply would not have the time for all this "phony invoice" nonsense even if I were crooked enough to be interested in it.

When a customer is sat at your desk you can only sell to one at a time. when they are all beetling away at their own businesses you can sell, by phone and fax, to a dozen at a time.

Angry White Pyjamas

Theres several reasons I have no intention of moving Ooop North. Heres a selection:

anotherlimey

You sound like a car salesman!

CaliforniaBride

LOL! Done! Turned 35 a couple of weeks ago. Clearly still causing me some problems!

CaliforniaBride

Do you actually own any of these?

Angry White Pyjamas

what the pics? No. Shall I remove them for you? and post some of mine instead do you think?

TRPardoe

I did not say that KBB etc were not legtimate, I said you could not get a specific invoice from there, which is true.

You are completely wrong in saying that the vehicles invoice contains "some sort of fat". It is an official document provided by the manufacturer and is not "edited" by the dealer.

The actual holdback is confidential commercial information. Just as the margin the builder has when he builds your house is confidential. Merely because you are nosy and want to know what it is does not give you the right to either see it or hack into it.

I don't know what you do for a living. Presumably it is not in sales. If you have customers, do you tell them what your profit margins are? Does your boss let you?

RoadWarriorFromLP

Again, the first statement is false. It is possible to derive the invoice price from Kelley and Edmunds. The customer can know the invoice price, to the dollar, without ever talking to a dealer.

I am not completely wrong in claiming that dealers don't use bogus invoices. I just bought a car a few months ago, and this very same stunt pulled on me. Not uncommon at all, as can be inferred from this link: http://www.consumerreports.org/conte...fees_fair.html Caveat emptor -- dealers play off of intimidation and buyer ignorance, and the packed invoice is just one example.

The holdback information is readily available from Edmunds or Automotive News magazine, it is not confidential. The only manufacturers for which it is difficult to get are some of the premium marques such as BMW (which pays one based upon customer satisfaction scores) and Audi (which denies that it pays them, even though it does -- based upon VW's, I would guess that it is 2% of MSRP.)

In fact, here is a link that provides and explains holdbacks for most makes: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incent...tives/holdback. Funny for you to claim that the holdback is confidential, when this shows Ford's to be 3% of MSRP.

Actually, I have done sales, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. For the educated customer, car pricing data is readily available, and there is no reason for a smart buyer to avoid using that information to his benefit -- information is power. I know that you don't care to have car dealer gimmicks exposed here, but if the users of this website can save some money by following my guidance, I will have done my part.

TRPardoe

I am sorry that your ideas are so ingrained that you cannot read my posts without confusing them with your own opinion.

You have said nothing which is not easily found from a Google search but you have written plenty of things which are just rhetoric.

Everything I have written is, as always, straight verifiable fact from someone with a professional knowledge of the subject.

As for the invoice, I have checked the facts with my Inventory Manager. The invoice is a document generated by the manufacturer and cannot be edited by the dealer.

Whatever your own dealer showed you was not an invoice if it was "packed with some sort of fat". I am sorry you went to someone whom you believe was dishonest. If this is true what did you do about it ? If you are such a consumer advocate, who did you report the dealer to for their "bogus practices" ?

If all this helpful information is so readily available, how come it did not help you ?

RoadWarriorFromLP

I'm not sure what you're talking about, as this information is actually quite helpful. I ignored the dealer's attempt to pad the invoice, and paid a few hundred dollars over the true invoice on a premium German car, with about an hour's worth of negotiation, getting the exact features I wanted without buying anything that I didn't want.

I could not care less whether the dealer attempts to play games or not -- that is part-and-parcel of buying a car in the US, and I adjust my tactics to match the game. Dealers are easy to play if the consumer knows how they work.

But what I will not do is to write a check for an amount that is inflated by a dealer employing standard tactics, or to not understand the system. I will not pay advertising fees, or PDI fees, or for undercoating, or for any of the other stuff that dealers try to peddle to the unknowing customer, and I wlll go in prepared with knowledge of the invoice, rebates available to either the consumer and dealer, and the holdback. There is no reason that anyone reading this thread should not do the same.

Sorry, but I would advise readers of this thread to believe Consumer Reports before believing a dealer. Since you've blatantly misrepresented the availability of invoice pricing and the holdback, it should be clear that arming the readers here with accurate information is not your highest priority.