Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
Jan 20th 2008, 6:21 pm
#166
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Location: Austin, Texas in my own little world
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
The best thing that could of this vis-a-vis this forum is if those posting here could dispel some of these myths amongst their real-world Yank friends and colleagues. Use that gift of gab to at least get them to see that the horror stories are grossly exaggerated, and in turn, they may tell others what they've learned.
The folks I've talked with have agreed in principle to the idea of a national health plan (and other humane notions like four weeks' holiday per year) and have been astonished at how other countries manage to pull this off. Then they go back to work and forget it, because -- again -- even if you manage to convert ten people, what are you going to do, march down Main Street?
Jan 20th 2008, 9:34 pm
#167
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Location: Chula Vista, California
Posts: 216
Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
If it isn't accepted coming from another American, I wonder that it would be more accepted coming from a foreigner?
The folks I've talked with have agreed in principle to the idea of a national health plan (and other humane notions like four weeks' holiday per year) and have been astonished at how other countries manage to pull this off. Then they go back to work and forget it, because -- again -- even if you manage to convert ten people, what are you going to do, march down Main Street?
The folks I've talked with have agreed in principle to the idea of a national health plan (and other humane notions like four weeks' holiday per year) and have been astonished at how other countries manage to pull this off. Then they go back to work and forget it, because -- again -- even if you manage to convert ten people, what are you going to do, march down Main Street?
Just because I knew it could happen to me, or anyone I knew with the people that died in the documentary.
Unfortunately I think a lot more American people would have watched this IF this had been Michael Moore's First Documentary, he's already rubbed many of them up the wrong way with the other Documentaries that they won't see it or even believe one word he says.
I had forgotten about Holidays in England and that I even got an extra week off because I got Married !! LOL
Since living in America I havn't been on Holiday in 18 years !
In England I was going abroad 2-3 times a year.
Luckily where I live helps, but, it's still nice to get away no matter where you live.
I've often told other Americans how it works in England, some don't believe me, some instantly say "But, they pay more taxes" But, I reply wouldn't it be worth paying some more taxes so you can go to the doctor's without worrying about all the bills you are going to get after youve been and stressing yourself into a heart attack when you worry where the money is coming from to pay some of the bills ?
Elaine
Jan 21st 2008, 1:30 am
#168
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Location: HOME
Posts: 23,182
Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I'm referring to the Britons and others here, who can speak firsthand about the benefits and drawbacks of both their state-run systems and the US private healthcare system, and can show that the US system ain't all that.
It's easy for the average man on the street to associate national healthcare with the horrors of Stalin when most of what we hear about it is filtered through this Red-baiting lens, particularly when the AMA, pharma companies, etc. help to keep the discussion framed in those terms.
The best thing that could of this vis-a-vis this forum is if those posting here could dispel some of these myths amongst their real-world Yank friends and colleagues. Use that gift of gab to at least get them to see that the horror stories are grossly exaggerated, and in turn, they may tell others what they've learned.
It's easy for the average man on the street to associate national healthcare with the horrors of Stalin when most of what we hear about it is filtered through this Red-baiting lens, particularly when the AMA, pharma companies, etc. help to keep the discussion framed in those terms.
The best thing that could of this vis-a-vis this forum is if those posting here could dispel some of these myths amongst their real-world Yank friends and colleagues. Use that gift of gab to at least get them to see that the horror stories are grossly exaggerated, and in turn, they may tell others what they've learned.
Which is why they're just going to muddle on for a few more years until the whole thing either collapses or becomes unaffordable, or both.
Last edited by Elvira; Jan 21st 2008 at 1:35 am. Reason: grammar is a good thing...
Jan 21st 2008, 1:34 am
#169
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
..........I've often told other Americans how it works in England, some don't believe me, some instantly say "But, they pay more taxes" But, I reply wouldn't it be worth paying some more taxes so you can go to the doctor's without worrying about all the bills you are going to get after youve been and stressing yourself into a heart attack when you worry where the money is coming from to pay some of the bills ?
Elaine
Elaine
Jan 21st 2008, 10:59 am
#170
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Joined: Oct 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 1,759
Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
The more taxes thing is a red herring. We actually pay more taxes here than we did in the UK, and are getting practically nothing for it. And, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the US spends more than twice as much on healthcare as Europe, for similar outcomes, so there is a heck of a lot of slack in the system to provide decent healthcare coverage for everyone in this country.
Jan 21st 2008, 11:01 am
#171
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I noticed we had a couple of Michael Moore threads but they were both pre-film. Has anyone now seen the movie?
As you'd expect, he bigs-up the British, French, Canadian and Cuban systems, whilst finding the worst of the US. Entertaining to see the segment on the UK.
He does a good job of focussing on the woes of "decent hardworking families" and 9/11 heroes with insurance, rather than spending a lot of time on the uninsured (who are clearly feckless scroungers and layabouts and who wouldn't generate the same recognition factor with a widespread audience)
Elvira - you must have seen it, what did you think of the bit where he bashed Hillary. He built her up for 5+ minutes and then whack! That got a bit of a reaction in a San Francisco audience.
Tony Benn seemed off his rocker.
Not sure it will tell the BE crew anything they don't already know, it was interesting listening to the audience on the way out, clearly some had fallen for the US bull on how bad socialised medicine was and had now seen something to challenge that view.
Worth a look just for the Brit section, although the Cuban one was quite amusing and indeed the French, especially the bit where the French gov pays for someone to do the baby's laundry for a new kid, Michael loved that one.
As you'd expect, he bigs-up the British, French, Canadian and Cuban systems, whilst finding the worst of the US. Entertaining to see the segment on the UK.
He does a good job of focussing on the woes of "decent hardworking families" and 9/11 heroes with insurance, rather than spending a lot of time on the uninsured (who are clearly feckless scroungers and layabouts and who wouldn't generate the same recognition factor with a widespread audience)
Elvira - you must have seen it, what did you think of the bit where he bashed Hillary. He built her up for 5+ minutes and then whack! That got a bit of a reaction in a San Francisco audience.
Tony Benn seemed off his rocker.
Not sure it will tell the BE crew anything they don't already know, it was interesting listening to the audience on the way out, clearly some had fallen for the US bull on how bad socialised medicine was and had now seen something to challenge that view.
Worth a look just for the Brit section, although the Cuban one was quite amusing and indeed the French, especially the bit where the French gov pays for someone to do the baby's laundry for a new kid, Michael loved that one.
Jan 21st 2008, 11:21 am
#172
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Jan 21st 2008, 12:21 pm
#173
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I enjoyed "Sicko," Moore is a supremely entertaining filmmaker. But his style is too shrill to be taken seriously, which distracts from his efforts and keeps his films from leading to meaningful social change. Instead of getting the audience to discuss health care, they end up fixated on Michael Moore, which may be great for Moore's ego and wealth, but not all that helpful for bringing about meaningful reform.
His decision to lionize Cuba was a poor one. With that stroke of anti-genius, he made it all too easy for middle-class fencesitters who could have been persuaded to instead associate managed care with communism. Nice job -- I thought that the whole point was to show that other perfectly civilized countries could operate their health care systems effectively, not to perpetuate the stereotype of the commies taking over the hospital.
As an American, I can tell you that people in this country have been long propagandized by the health care lobby and Republican Party to believe that government-managed health care is a horrid Soviet nightmare. You folks need to get the word out that this is nonsense and that these other systems have their advantages.
His decision to lionize Cuba was a poor one. With that stroke of anti-genius, he made it all too easy for middle-class fencesitters who could have been persuaded to instead associate managed care with communism. Nice job -- I thought that the whole point was to show that other perfectly civilized countries could operate their health care systems effectively, not to perpetuate the stereotype of the commies taking over the hospital.
As an American, I can tell you that people in this country have been long propagandized by the health care lobby and Republican Party to believe that government-managed health care is a horrid Soviet nightmare. You folks need to get the word out that this is nonsense and that these other systems have their advantages.
Jan 21st 2008, 12:24 pm
#174
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,669
Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I think you missed the point Moore was trying to make. I feel he is trying to say, that Cuba is a very poor country with little resourses. If they can implement a health care system that works and takes care of all their citizens, then why can't the richest, most powerful country in the world do the same. The US can certainly find plenty of money to kill people why can't they find money to take care of their citizens healthcare. There's millions of dollars spent on war, millions of dollars spent on the space program, and millions of dollars spent on feeding people and providing healthcare to people in third world countries. Where is the money for people in America that are hungry, or in need. I think it's disgraceful that we have to have fundraisers, and TV programs to petition our neigbors to help and make donations for victims of crisis or disaster. Americans can be extrordinarilly generous and that should be commended but why is the government so slow to step up to the plate for there own citizens.
It is a case of 'I'm alright Jack'. Sigh.
Jan 21st 2008, 1:00 pm
#175
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I agree changes are along way off yet. Americans can be very complacent. Grocery prices go up they get another job. Gas prices go up, everybody complains then they fill up. Healthcare premiums go up they pay it. Where is the fight? Where is the protest? When is enough, enough? Americans are the most patriotic people in the world and yet they have the least reason to be patriotic. Americans are some of the hardest working people in the world yet they don't get much reward. They work hard to provide the best for their families but they work so much they don't get to spend quality time with their families. Maybe if they got more than two to three weeks holiday a year, shorter work week, decent lunch hours, this wouldn't be the heart attack capital of the world.
Jan 21st 2008, 1:22 pm
#176
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I agree changes are along way off yet. Americans can be very complacent. Grocery prices go up they get another job. Gas prices go up, everybody complains then they fill up. Healthcare premiums go up they pay it. Where is the fight? Where is the protest? When is enough, enough? Americans are the most patriotic people in the world and yet they have the least reason to be patriotic. Americans are some of the hardest working people in the world yet they don't get much reward. They work hard to provide the best for their families but they work so much they don't get to spend quality time with their families. Maybe if they got more than two to three weeks holiday a year, shorter work week, decent lunch hours, this wouldn't be the heart attack capital of the world.
We had some marches here in our area, BIG marches. Where were the counter marches ? No where in sight.
I couldn't believe that Americans did nothing.
Flags of another Country were all over the place, American flags nowhere in sight, still nothing.
Unless England has changed a LOT since I left, I can't imagine a March of people waving flags of another Country and the English doing nothing about it ?
Elaine
Jan 21st 2008, 1:30 pm
#177
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
Jan 21st 2008, 2:06 pm
#178
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Location: USA! USA!
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Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
I think you missed the point Moore was trying to make. I feel he is trying to say, that Cuba is a very poor country with little resourses. If they can implement a health care system that works and takes care of all their citizens, then why can't the richest, most powerful country in the world do the same.
I think that you must not realize the extent to which many Americans take issue with the Cuban government. Moore may as well waved a rag in front of a bull to paint Cuba in such utopian terms.
He had many other examples that he could have used that would have resonated with the public much more so than that one. Moore would have done us all a greater service had he substituted another country that Americans can relate to, such as Australia, in place of Cuba. I realize that we wanted the dramatic effect of taking a boat to Guantanamo and taking another pot shot at the Iraq War, but that play for sensationalism got in the way of selling the message to the public.
I do think that Moore is more interested in selling movie tickets than he is in making social change. That's a shame, as his celebrity gives him a unique position to educate the public.
Jan 21st 2008, 2:07 pm
#179
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
DITTO on that !!
We had some marches here in our area, BIG marches. Where were the counter marches ? No where in sight.
I couldn't believe that Americans did nothing.
Flags of another Country were all over the place, American flags nowhere in sight, still nothing.
Unless England has changed a LOT since I left, I can't imagine a March of people waving flags of another Country and the English doing nothing about it ?
Elaine
We had some marches here in our area, BIG marches. Where were the counter marches ? No where in sight.
I couldn't believe that Americans did nothing.
Flags of another Country were all over the place, American flags nowhere in sight, still nothing.
Unless England has changed a LOT since I left, I can't imagine a March of people waving flags of another Country and the English doing nothing about it ?
Elaine
Jan 21st 2008, 2:33 pm
#180
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Re: Sicko - so who has now seen the film?
Pointing to Cuba as an example of what the US should do is a bit like your local highway department upholding Hitler's visions for the autobahnen for validation of its freeway building program. Not only was it stupid, it wasn't even necessary, given that every other industrialized country in the world has some sort of government-sponsored medical program, and most of them work quite well.
I think that you must not realize the extent to which many Americans take issue with the Cuban government. Moore may as well waved a rag in front of a bull to paint Cuba in such utopian terms.
He had many other examples that he could have used that would have resonated with the public much more so than that one. Moore would have done us all a greater service had he substituted another country that Americans can relate to, such as Australia, in place of Cuba. I realize that we wanted the dramatic effect of taking a boat to Guantanamo and taking another pot shot at the Iraq War, but that play for sensationalism got in the way of selling the message to the public.
I do think that Moore is more interested in selling movie tickets than he is in making social change. That's a shame, as his celebrity gives him a unique position to educate the public.
I think that you must not realize the extent to which many Americans take issue with the Cuban government. Moore may as well waved a rag in front of a bull to paint Cuba in such utopian terms.
He had many other examples that he could have used that would have resonated with the public much more so than that one. Moore would have done us all a greater service had he substituted another country that Americans can relate to, such as Australia, in place of Cuba. I realize that we wanted the dramatic effect of taking a boat to Guantanamo and taking another pot shot at the Iraq War, but that play for sensationalism got in the way of selling the message to the public.
I do think that Moore is more interested in selling movie tickets than he is in making social change. That's a shame, as his celebrity gives him a unique position to educate the public.
