RoadWarriorFromLP

Yet mysteriously, by offering a package that was three times the size of the previous average, things changed.

Have you naive dupes figured out yet that Carrier didn't actually intend to move all of those people and was holding out for a better deal? It's a classic decoy strategy: Tell the other side that you want or will do X even if you don't intend to do it in order get what you really want.

Ebonhawke

I think that, prior to Trump's election, Carrier did fully intend to move all of those people to Mexico. Politicians haven't traditionally inserted themselves into individual corporate decisions in the past, so I don't think there was a reasonable expectation of a 'better' deal had Clinton won, and even with tripling the tax break, it doesn't come close to the cost reduction that Carrier would have achieved by moving production.

As I've said before, I'm not a Trump supporter - I fully expect that UTI will change its bid for its defense contracts from say $6.5B to $7B, simply because they have the Carrier employees as 'hostages', and will make even more money off the 'deal'.

As the CEO of UTI has already said, the $7M tax break that they're getting from Indiana will be used to add even more automation to the facility, meaning workers whose jobs were 'saved' will soon lose them again.

RoadWarriorFromLP

Moving can be disruptive to production quantity and quality. It is foolish to presume that moving comes without a cost or that there aren't other considerations in shifting production to new facilities.

It is simply a fact that Carrier has received Indiana subsidies before, and that this package is substantially larger than the last one that it received.

And it didn't come from Trump. Trump has no authority over how Indiana provides incentives. The reason that Trump is focusing on Indiana is because his VP is Indiana's governor and was already working on this before he became the VP nominee.

Trump is taking credit for work done by someone else, using benefits that were not Trump's to give, and you are naively eating it up.

Here's a prediction: Carrier will either eventually move all of those jobs to Mexico after it feels confident that the Mexican facility can perform as it needs to, or else it will go back to the trough in a few years to get more stuff. This is how business operates.

Ebonhawke

Wait - why do you think that I'm 'eating it up' and being naive? My position is that UTI is just using the promise of the tax breaks as an excuse, and that Trump's 'deal' with Carrier will simply allow UTI to pad their defense contracts at the government's (and taxpayer's) expense.

We just seem to have different ways of how the corporations are going to make money off this 'deal' that's all.

Giantaxe

Something of an assumption there that those 800 jobs will remain for ten years. My bet is that many, perhaps most, will disappear over that time period either by being moved to Mexico or through automation. Carrier committed to keeping its factory open, not to keeping a specific number of employees there over time.

dakota44

He will never get that past Congress. Biggest reason...Boeing. Americas largest exporter by far. China is looking to buy about 6,000 planes over the next decades. They have already suggested that in the face of a tarriff war Boeing would be out...leaving Airbus to profit...sending Boeing into a tailspin and costing many thousands of jobs. Boeing is currently building a number of planes for various Chinese airlines with a lot more planned in the pipeline. Idiot Trump has no clue the damage a trade war would do to the U.S He needs to study a little more history.

Leslie

I bet it's not the least bit comfortable on top of looking like complete and utter poo.

RoadWarriorFromLP

In the past, Indiana has used incentives to create jobs.

This time, it is providing incentives to a company that will be cutting jobs.

That's the art of the deal. UTC/Carrier did well for itself.

dakota44

Rather expected this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.0fd4c7e87aeb

robin1234

And Trump's reaction is to trash the CIA! Does this man realise that, in a few weeks time, he's supposed to step up and be President of the United States?

morpeth

I would serious doubt that having higher taxes and regulations is what reduces the unemployment rate. I know the payroll tax definitely was a negative for two large San Francisco employers I worked for. They both tried to explain it to city officials who couldn't grasp that a lot of administrative and clerical staff could easily be transferred.

Haven't been back for a while, but I would suspect tourism and IT sector more important in propelling job growth there. Someone mentioned to me a while back the Mission district now has lots of start ups.

If I recall didn't San Francisco have something like 10 vice mayors ? When I was there it was a pretty corrupt city administration- names like Feinstein and her husband, Shorenstein, Willie Brown, all come to mind.

Ebonhawke

Of course I expect that Congress will never pass it - but I'm curious to see Trump's reaction when he sees that members of the party that he ostensibly leads oppose him.

Should there be an escalating trade war with China, I would almost expect that the Chinese would initially target US exports that are made in states that voted for Trump, as they potentially would carry more impact on Republican lawmakers (but who knows). They may not initially target products made in Democratic-led states as that may not dissuade Republican lawmakers.

Post-election, GM has announced that they're going to export the Silverado and Colorado trucks to China. The Silverado is made in Flint, Michigan and Fort Wayne Indiana, and the Colorado is made in Wentzville Missouri (all Trump states).

China could also claim that with the reduction of regulations that Trump has promised that it is no longer confident about the food safety of certain US agricultural exports. Soybeans, grains, meat products, and cotton all are at the top of the agricultural export list to China. All have significant production in Republican-won states. Agricultural exports accounted for $20B in 2015.

Ebonhawke

Of course he trashed the CIA - to agree that the Russians may have had some involvement in the election (whether they helped him or not) would mean that he may not be legitimate. It would be a blow to his narcissistic ego. For those that believe that Breitbart is 'fairer' than the lying main stream media, Breitbart is dismissing the CIA report as a left-wing conspiracy designed to discredit Trump (and it's buried after articles about allegations that MSNBC reporters made up information)

I think that one of the reasons that he's appointing so many CEO's to his cabinet is that it makes him feel good - that people whom he feels are so successful (and face it, the CEOs of Goldman-Sachs and Exxon are more successful than Donald) are now reporting to him.

Giantaxe

My point is that despite these taxes and mandates, San Francisco consistently has a lower than average unemployment rate. Most economists consider a rate of just over 3% to be essentially full employment. Yes, many startups are flocking to San Francisco. So your anecdote is essentially... irrelevant to the bigger picture.


San Francisco doesn't have a vice mayor. Neither Douglas Shorenstein or his father was mayor or on the board of supervisors. Feinstein's husband is Richard Blum. So wrong on every count.. well done! And pretty hilarious how you pivoted from taxes to "they were corrupt".

Leslie

Trump never hid who he was.

Trump implored the Russians, from the podium, to hack Hillary and find the 'missing emails'. Putin has been grooming Trump, like a pedophile priest with his new favorite alter boy, at least since Trump entered the race if not for longer.

I have long wondered what the Russians have on Trump, Comey and the RNC.