2016 Election
Sep 24th 2015 | 11:37 am
#1486
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,206
From: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Re: 2016 Election
(Playing devil's advocate)
Chomsky didn't analyze the Republicans, he just offered an ad hominem attack.
-He presumes that opposition to an unacceptable presidential foreign policy initiative is inherently "astonishing." Citizens in a democracy are not obliged to toe the line of the president just because -- he is an elected official, not a king -- and the president should take responsibility for his failure to build consensus in a system built on checks and balances.
-Was Chomsky equally critical of party-line votes on the Democratic side of the aisle, as was the case with Obamacare? The GOP leadership should not be faulted for leading an effective coalition.
Chomsky slams the Southern vote by default, dismissing it as "remnants of the former slave-holding States." Last I checked, those states had electoral votes that are as legitimate as any other, and much of the population of those states consists of former Northeasterners who have relocated to the Sun Belt.
Chomsky didn't analyze the Republicans, he just offered an ad hominem attack.
-He presumes that opposition to an unacceptable presidential foreign policy initiative is inherently "astonishing." Citizens in a democracy are not obliged to toe the line of the president just because -- he is an elected official, not a king -- and the president should take responsibility for his failure to build consensus in a system built on checks and balances.
-Was Chomsky equally critical of party-line votes on the Democratic side of the aisle, as was the case with Obamacare? The GOP leadership should not be faulted for leading an effective coalition.
Chomsky slams the Southern vote by default, dismissing it as "remnants of the former slave-holding States." Last I checked, those states had electoral votes that are as legitimate as any other, and much of the population of those states consists of former Northeasterners who have relocated to the Sun Belt.
Sep 24th 2015 | 11:53 am
#1487
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 13,212
From: San Francisco
Re: 2016 Election
Because there's no point. He's expressing an opinion regarding a political party with which he has serious philosophical disagreements and he's entitled to that.
Take this point from the article:
"You can tell that even by the votes. I mean, any issue of any complexity is going to have some diversity of opinion. But when you get a unanimous vote to kill the Iranian deal or the Affordable Care Act or whatever the next thing may be, you know you’re not dealing with a political party."Precisely the same thing could be said about the Democratic Party when the Senate Democratic caucus voted unanimously to approve the Affordable Care Act. Did Chomsky jump on his soapbox and denounce that party for not having any diversity of opinion and state that he knew one was not dealing with a political party? No! Why not? Because they did something he wanted them to do.
So, without shooting the messenger, I still value his opinion according to how much it cost me - nada.
Take this point from the article:
"You can tell that even by the votes. I mean, any issue of any complexity is going to have some diversity of opinion. But when you get a unanimous vote to kill the Iranian deal or the Affordable Care Act or whatever the next thing may be, you know you’re not dealing with a political party."
So, without shooting the messenger, I still value his opinion according to how much it cost me - nada.
https://www.amacad.org/publications/...nnOrnstein.pdf
Sep 24th 2015 | 12:41 pm
#1488
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,206
From: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Re: 2016 Election
You do realize that the "The GOP is a radical insurgency" meme is that of two fellows of the Brookings Institution, a non-partisan centrist think tank recently ranked as "the most influential think tank in the world"?
https://www.amacad.org/publications/...nnOrnstein.pdf
https://www.amacad.org/publications/...nnOrnstein.pdf
"On a personal level, life in the center has become, as the Franken cabinet might put it, a pain in the tuchas. Innocuous statements I have made--or even things that would make conservatives angry--are routinely mischaracterized as right-wing rants. It is a sad but real testament to the nature of political discourse in America that what one says these days is less significant than from where one says it." By Norman Ornstein
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/my-neocon-problem
Last edited by FlaviusAetius; Sep 24th 2015 at 12:44 pm.
Sep 25th 2015 | 12:13 am
#1489
Bloody Yank
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,186
From: USA! USA!
Re: 2016 Election
The GOP's goal is to win majorities, not to assume the role as the loyal opposition, and coalition building should not take the place of governing.
And the Southern Strategy is a matter of fact, so Chomsky is correct when he notes that the GOP pursues the race-baiting, nativist voting bloc. Chomsky tends to speaking in flowery terms and isn't one to drop data into his narrative, but the basis of his argument is easily verified.
So my comments were tripe. But they do show that it is possible to make a bad argument sound reasonable if one is selective with the facts while keeping the strawmen to a minimum.
Sep 25th 2015 | 1:36 am
#1490
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,206
From: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Re: 2016 Election
What my right-wing alter-ego failed to point out is that the Republican party has no interest in consensus, so there isn't anything that Obama could have done to win the support that they have no intention in providing.
The GOP's goal is to win majorities, not to assume the role as the loyal opposition, and coalition building should not take the place of governing.
And the Southern Strategy is a matter of fact, so Chomsky is correct when he notes that the GOP pursues the race-baiting, nativist voting bloc. Chomsky tends to speaking in flowery terms and isn't one to drop data into his narrative, but the basis of his argument is easily verified.
So my comments were tripe. But they do show that it is possible to make a bad argument sound reasonable if one is selective with the facts while keeping the strawmen to a minimum.
The GOP's goal is to win majorities, not to assume the role as the loyal opposition, and coalition building should not take the place of governing.
And the Southern Strategy is a matter of fact, so Chomsky is correct when he notes that the GOP pursues the race-baiting, nativist voting bloc. Chomsky tends to speaking in flowery terms and isn't one to drop data into his narrative, but the basis of his argument is easily verified.
So my comments were tripe. But they do show that it is possible to make a bad argument sound reasonable if one is selective with the facts while keeping the strawmen to a minimum.
Last edited by FlaviusAetius; Sep 25th 2015 at 1:38 am.
Sep 25th 2015 | 1:44 am
#1491
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 49,598
From: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Sep 25th 2015 | 1:55 am
#1492
Thread Starter
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,106
From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 2016 Election
Boehner has resigned. Apparently he wants to spend more time with his chocolate factory.
Sep 25th 2015 | 3:53 am
#1494
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,206
From: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Re: 2016 Election
Sigh...the word to Boehner was: If you won't lead us over the cliff, we'll find someone who will.
Sep 25th 2015 | 5:25 am
#1495
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,130
From: Arizona
Re: 2016 Election
Celebration in anticipation of advancing the insurgency:
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/at-co...oc_trk=ma&nf=1
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/at-co...oc_trk=ma&nf=1
Sep 25th 2015 | 5:29 am
#1496
Thread Starter
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,106
From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 2016 Election
At a certain point someone is just going to come out and say maybe Trump is the best the GOP have.
Ben Carson: Science is fairy tales and the devil inspired Darwin
Jeb Bush In 1995: Unwed Mothers Should Be Publicly Shamed
As an aside, I saw my first "Carson '16" bumper sticker today. On a Prius!
Ben Carson: Science is fairy tales and the devil inspired Darwin
Later, Carson said he personally believed Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution was encouraged by the devil.
There was a time when neighbors and communities would frown on out of wedlock births and when public condemnation was enough of a stimulus for one to be careful.
Sep 25th 2015 | 6:10 am
#1497
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,206
From: Lehigh Valley, PA USA
Sep 25th 2015 | 6:27 am
#1498
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 49,598
From: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Re: 2016 Election
at anyone who thinks Priuses (no idea on how to correctly pluralize that one) will in any way, shape or form change the world. (I know you were satirizing them, not shooting the messenger here.)Unless they think that electricity is generated by magic fairies who excrete only pure water and oxygen as waste products.
Sep 25th 2015 | 7:25 am
#1499
Thread Starter
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 8,106
From: Phoenix, AZ
Re: 2016 Election
A thought occurs regarding Boehner's departure. Fair's fair, Boehner is actually a relatively moderate GOP kind of guy. Despite Congress being quite dysfunctional under his speakership, one wonders how worse it might get.
What if the Tea Party Caucus get control of the Speaker? We could be facing government shut downs every week. This could really play on to people's thoughts come election time.
What if the Tea Party Caucus get control of the Speaker? We could be facing government shut downs every week. This could really play on to people's thoughts come election time.
Sep 25th 2015 | 8:24 am
#1500
I love my brick!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 9,304
From: Peachy
Re: 2016 Election
A thought occurs regarding Boehner's departure. Fair's fair, Boehner is actually a relatively moderate GOP kind of guy. Despite Congress being quite dysfunctional under his speakership, one wonders how worse it might get.
What if the Tea Party Caucus get control of the Speaker? We could be facing government shut downs every week. This could really play on to people's thoughts come election time.
What if the Tea Party Caucus get control of the Speaker? We could be facing government shut downs every week. This could really play on to people's thoughts come election time.
