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Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 10764294)
My opinions are influenced to a degree by many struggling Spanish people who see the whole thing as a Monstrous White Elephant and no doubt wonder just how many half decent square meals, as well as hospital and school improvements, could have been bought for themselves and their families by the Billions of euros that have been chucked down the plughole on this ill fated and badly planned project, as well as others.
All the jobs created by the ensuing export contracts aren't good (I gave a link earlier on how Talgo is expanding its factory. And you should read this article - the new Alicante link will create 735 new jobs. Not to mention the benefits to tourism, and increased attractiveness for the purchase of houses in the area - already in 2012 Madrilenos bought up 4300 properties. http://www.eleconomista.es/interstit...e-trabajo.html |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 10764308)
So all those jobs created in building the project aren't worthwhile? Perhaps you'd sooner pay out 200 billion a year on benefits instead, like Britain?
All the jobs created by the ensuing export contracts aren't good (I gave a link earlier on how Talgo is expanding its factory. And you should read this article - the new Alicante link will create 735 new jobs. Not to mention the benefits to tourism, and increased attractiveness for the purchase of houses in the area - already in 2012 Mardilenos bought up 4300 properties. http://www.eleconomista.es/interstit...e-trabajo.html You get what ever time you have paid in, then you are on your own. |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by me me
(Post 10764306)
:yawn::yawn::yawn:
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Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 10764308)
So all those jobs created in building the project aren't worthwhile? Perhaps you'd sooner pay out 200 billion a year on benefits instead, like Britain?
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Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 10764197)
I know we won't ever agree on this, but local cercanias around cities like Madrid, Valencia and Zaragoza are already good.
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Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by johnnyone
(Post 10764408)
Remind me again. What is currently the largest engineering project in Europe?
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Re: Train development news
For anyone who still has the faintest doubt that the whole project is anything other than a monstrous White Elephant, have a study of this extremely sobering reading.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/15/...98_135607.html Just some of the key points... The network is not viable economically or even necessary. 3.7 Billion euros spent on the stretch up to the French border, yet because of all the bridges and tunnels the train cannot even get remotely close to it's optimum operating speed. The Paris/Madrid link is unsustainable and even in a best case scenario can only save another half an hour on the journey time. Independent studies suggest that the whole system is nothing more than a money pit. The public works committee is unable to name a single economist or transport expert who supports the scheme. Compared to hi-speed routes in other countries such as France, Germany and Japan, the Spanish system is only likely to be used by a fraction of their numbers and can never even come anywhere close to being economically viable. (numbers are demonstrated). There is no evidence that any of the towns on the present routes have benefited from their hi-speed link up to the present date. They even built a multi million euro station at a 1000 population village where it is quite rare for anyone to even use it. It's had a negative impact on other more convenient conventional routes causing some stations to close and prospective passengers left with little alternative. Typically Billions have been spent on new lines and infrastructure to achieve a mere saving of fifteen minutes journey time. Many planned stations are now unlikely to be built and Portugal has pulled out of it's hi-speed link with Badajoz, as they desperately need the money for more important things. Portugal is however considering a future more conventional rail link for goods, as the hi-speed line is unsuitable for commercial cargo. I think the most telling remark of all was by an economist, who said that Spain has once again followed its usual White Elephant trend of building first and thinking later. :o Class dismissed. |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 10764308)
So all those jobs created in building the project aren't worthwhile? Perhaps you'd sooner pay out 200 billion a year on benefits instead, like Britain?
All the jobs created by the ensuing export contracts aren't good (I gave a link earlier on how Talgo is expanding its factory. And you should read this article - the new Alicante link will create 735 new jobs. Not to mention the benefits to tourism, and increased attractiveness for the purchase of houses in the area - already in 2012 Madrilenos bought up 4300 properties. http://www.eleconomista.es/interstit...e-trabajo.html OK, I reckon we could all use an excuse to break out the bubbly. Tourists usually don't buy houses, but if it's cheaper to buy a house than rent one for a week, then I suppose that's rational. :blink: |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 10764566)
For anyone who still has the faintest doubt that the whole project is anything other than a monstrous White Elephant, have a study of this extremely sobering reading.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/15/...98_135607.html Just some of the key points... The network is not viable economically or even necessary. 3.7 Billion euros spent on the stretch up to the French border, yet because of all the bridges and tunnels the train cannot even get remotely close to it's optimum operating speed. The Paris/Madrid link is unsustainable and even in a best case scenario can only save another half an hour on the journey time. Independent studies suggest that the whole system is nothing more than a money pit. The public works committee is unable to name a single economist or transport expert who supports the scheme. Compared to hi-speed routes in other countries such as France, Germany and Japan, the Spanish system is only likely to be used by a fraction of their numbers and can never even come anywhere close to being economically viable. (numbers are demonstrated). There is no evidence that any of the towns on the present routes have benefited from their hi-speed link up to the present date. They even built a multi million euro station at a 1000 population village where it is quite rare for anyone to even use it. It's had a negative impact on other more convenient conventional routes causing some stations to close and prospective passengers left with little alternative. Typically Billions have been spent on new lines and infrastructure to achieve a mere saving of fifteen minutes journey time. Many planned stations are now unlikely to be built and Portugal has pulled out of it's hi-speed link with Badajoz, as they desperately need the money for more important things. Portugal is however considering a future more conventional rail link for goods, as the hi-speed line is unsuitable for commercial cargo. I think the most telling remark of all was by an economist, who said that Spain has once again followed its usual White Elephant trend of building first and thinking later. :o Class dismissed. Yet the UK Govt still seem to think it is a good idea :( |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by Domino
(Post 10765912)
And so much of that can be extrapolated to the UK's HS2 White Elephant, even though it would not have the bridges and tunnels needed in Spain, the net gain in travel time is miniscule.
Yet the UK Govt still seem to think it is a good idea :( I wouldn't for one moment expect it to stop off at tiny villages in the middle of nowhere with expensive,purpose built stations. However something along the lines of the present inter city system would likely be sufficient to my way of thinking, if it lead to substantial cost savings. Therefore as you say, unnecessarily committing shed loads of money to it just to save a few minutes is not really justified. |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 10766151)
Although I don't think it should go ahead under present circumstances, it's a bit extreme to call it a white elephant, because it's widely accepted that the extra capacity is needed and would be well used in order to relieve the congestion and provide an alternative to the present overloaded system.
However something along the lines of the present inter city system would likely be sufficient to my way of thinking, if it lead to substantial cost savings. Therefore as you say, unnecessarily committing shed loads of money to it just to save a few minutes is not really justified. Seems country's are still prepared to proceed with these Vanity Projects to show they can owe billions, their citizens are getting poorer, but they can still mortgage the grandchildren to the hilt for little/no gain. :( |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
(Post 10764566)
For anyone who still has the faintest doubt that the whole project is anything other than a monstrous White Elephant, have a study of this extremely sobering reading.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/15/...98_135607.html Just some of the key points... The network is not viable economically or even necessary. 3.7 Billion euros spent on the stretch up to the French border, yet because of all the bridges and tunnels the train cannot even get remotely close to it's optimum operating speed. The Paris/Madrid link is unsustainable and even in a best case scenario can only save another half an hour on the journey time. Independent studies suggest that the whole system is nothing more than a money pit. The public works committee is unable to name a single economist or transport expert who supports the scheme. Compared to hi-speed routes in other countries such as France, Germany and Japan, the Spanish system is only likely to be used by a fraction of their numbers and can never even come anywhere close to being economically viable. (numbers are demonstrated). There is no evidence that any of the towns on the present routes have benefited from their hi-speed link up to the present date. They even built a multi million euro station at a 1000 population village where it is quite rare for anyone to even use it. It's had a negative impact on other more convenient conventional routes causing some stations to close and prospective passengers left with little alternative. Typically Billions have been spent on new lines and infrastructure to achieve a mere saving of fifteen minutes journey time. Many planned stations are now unlikely to be built and Portugal has pulled out of it's hi-speed link with Badajoz, as they desperately need the money for more important things. Portugal is however considering a future more conventional rail link for goods, as the hi-speed line is unsuitable for commercial cargo. I think the most telling remark of all was by an economist, who said that Spain has once again followed its usual White Elephant trend of building first and thinking later. :o Class dismissed. A lot of the criticism is based around the Madrid - Paris connection. I wasn't aware that the goal of the connecting the Spanish system to the French system was to connect the two capitals. It was simply an inevitable outcome. As is the fact that London and Madrid are also now connected - but nobody is pretending that many people are going to travel between London and Madrid on high speed train. Also I believe the HSR lines connecting European countries receive large EU subsidies. In fact Spain has clashed with the EU in trying to claim subsidies for internal lines connecting Spanish cities (the EU said "no"). Also there aren't that many villages that have AVE stations, and it is unclear whether the intention was to grow those villages or just use them as a gateway to surrounding areas. In Madrid the most controversial has been Guadalajara, since it doesn't seem to serve any purpose and, oddly enough, it is where the ex-Mayor of Madrid Esperanza Aguirre's family happens to own large amounts of land. |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by chopera
(Post 10766325)
That's an interesting article. A couple of points spring to mind:
A lot of the criticism is based around the Madrid - Paris connection. I wasn't aware that the goal of the connecting the Spanish system to the French system was to connect the two capitals. It was simply an inevitable outcome. As is the fact that London and Madrid are also now connected - but nobody is pretending that many people are going to travel between London and Madrid on high speed train. Also I believe the HSR lines connecting European countries receive large EU subsidies. In fact Spain has clashed with the EU in trying to claim subsidies for internal lines connecting Spanish cities (the EU said "no"). Also there aren't that many villages that have AVE stations, and it is unclear whether the intention was to grow those villages or just use them as a gateway to surrounding areas. In Madrid the most controversial has been Guadalajara, since it doesn't seem to serve any purpose and, oddly enough, it is where the ex-Mayor of Madrid Esperanza Aguirre's family happens to own large amounts of land. :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe
(Post 10763255)
Actually there has been brilliant news on the trains - I just thought you lot were bored of this subject :rofl: 99% occupancy on the first day http://www.abc.es/local-alicante/201...Y51aWM.twitter There have been 70,000 tickets sold in a week for this service! ( a 42% increase over the same route in 2012). Just as well that available seats have been increased from 4,800 to 6,300 per day.
I'm afraid the jealous foreigners are going to find it very hard making sense of their knee-jerk knocks on this line - it's expected to be a very profitable line. As for the station at Villena you mention, it's actually in place for the high speed link still being built from Valencia to Alicante, and connecting roads probably don't need to be in place until that link is completed. As you can tell from this map it makes a lot of sense. http://ep01.epimg.net/elpais/imagene...cia_normal.png |
Re: Train development news
Originally Posted by angiescarr
(Post 10766457)
Excellent news. I love the Ave. The last trip my husband and I made was to Madrid from Seville. There and back again for 97 euros for both of us. we'll be travelling at least twice more this year once to Barcelona and once to Madrid again. It's good to know we can add Alicante and all places around to our possible destinations now!
Because they cannot fill the trains at the premium fares they expected to get when planning the service. Don't get me wrong I am all for spending on infrastructure but I find it difficult to comprehend how the AVE has benefited Spain in relation to it's cost. So much could have been done elsewhere with the money. Same applies to other projects such as the ghost airports. |
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