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Toros - tide turning?

Toros - tide turning?

Old May 2nd 2010, 2:28 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

[QUOTE=cricketman;8532546]You're entitled to your view and me on mine.

It was Albert Einstein who stated "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; but no one is entitled to their own facts".

Fact 1, Bullfighting is not an artform by any definition; it may be a ritual, and no doubt it is a skill, but an art never.

Fact 2, The violent killing of an animal is an abomination of any decent human activity. To say it is an 'honourable death' is a bizarre statement. There is no honour involved by either the bull, the matador or the audience.

These are my opinion; but they are also facts by any sensible reckoning.

Using your kind of logic, the torture and pederasty of children by Catholic priests is also an honourable artform. DISCUSS
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Old May 2nd 2010, 2:32 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

[QUOTE=superskib;8536914]
Originally Posted by cricketman
You're entitled to your view and me on mine.

It was Albert Einstein who stated "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; but no one is entitled to their own facts".

Fact 1, Bullfighting is not an artform by any definition; it may be a ritual, and no doubt it is a skill, but an art never.

Fact 2, The violent killing of an animal is an abomination of any decent human activity. To say it is an 'honourable death' is a bizarre statement. There is no honour involved by either the bull, the matador or the audience.

These are my opinion; but they are also facts by any sensible reckoning.

Using your kind of logic, the torture and pederasty of children by Catholic priests is also an honourable artform. DISCUSS
I don't think you'd get people who know a thing about art, like Goya, Picasso, Orson Welles etc talking about Catholic abuse of children as art somehow.

Fail!

(note - doesn't mean that los toros should be allowed merely because it's an art form. By that logic we'd bring back the gladatorial games. Hmmm some people may support that!)
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Old May 2nd 2010, 2:48 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by superskib

It was Albert Einstein who stated "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; but no one is entitled to their own facts".

Fact 1, Bullfighting is not an artform by any definition; it may be a ritual, and no doubt it is a skill, but an art never.

Fact 2, The violent killing of an animal is an abomination of any decent human activity. To say it is an 'honourable death' is a bizarre statement. There is no honour involved by either the bull, the matador or the audience.

These are my opinion; but they are also facts by any sensible reckoning.

Using your kind of logic, the torture and pederasty of children by Catholic priests is also an honourable artform. DISCUSS
Brilliant, I wondered how long someone would come out wit a completely ridiculous statement. Awesome!
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Old May 2nd 2010, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

OK guys, please let's get back on topic.

The thread is about Toros in Spain not about fox hunting in the UK or Catholic priests.
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Old May 2nd 2010, 6:00 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by rugbymatt
Why would you leave a bullock entire? It flavours the meat and makes it impossible to actually keep them as they all end up fighting.
It's nothing new.My neighbours been raising bull-beef for at least twenty years.
Advantages are faster weight gain and less surplus fat in the early stages,also a higher killing out ratio.
Generally they are no more problem than steers if run in the same batches from an early age,however if one has to be seperated for a while for whatever reason then care is needed when returned to the batch.
The quality of the meat is good up to 16 mths by which time they should be marketed,..any longer and the quality deteriorates.
Not a job for the novice though, as the standard of management is more important than with steers.
You should also know that bulls being reared for stud/breeding purposes are also generally run together in batches without any major problems.
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Old May 2nd 2010, 6:27 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
It's nothing new.My neighbours been raising bull-beef for at least twenty years.
Advantages are faster weight gain and less surplus fat in the early stages,also a higher killing out ratio.
Generally they are no more problem than steers if run in the same batches from an early age,however if one has to be seperated for a while for whatever reason then care is needed when returned to the batch.
The quality of the meat is good up to 16 mths by which time they should be marketed,..any longer and the quality deteriorates.
Not a job for the novice though, as the standard of management is more important than with steers.
You should also know that bulls being reared for stud/breeding purposes are also generally run together in batches without any major problems.

Never once heard of it... ever. I cant see how meat taint isn't a problem. I will ask on a farming forum I use.
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Old May 2nd 2010, 7:09 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by rugbymatt
Never once heard of it... ever. I cant see how meat taint isn't a problem. I will ask on a farming forum I use.
What's meat taint?
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Old May 2nd 2010, 7:15 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by bil
What's meat taint?
Whats meat"aint fish..........
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Old May 2nd 2010, 7:38 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by bil
What's meat taint?
When you allow a male animal to complete the natural cycle of its life and the testosterone starts to rise it begins to flavour the meat. Its only faint in young animals and is taken care of once they are castrated, but its very noticeable in a 20 month old animal and many places just won't take the meat (butchers I mean)

What HGB is talking about assume is allowing bull calfs to develop as bulls and thus building more muscle, more meat and more frame quicker.... which is fine if its just intended for the likes of McDonalds but the stress it puts the animals under is quite high, cattle are highly territorial and bulls will fight almost constantly... you imagine putting 50-100 bulls in a field together, its like a Millwall match!
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Old May 2nd 2010, 8:09 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

I went to a 'toro bravo' farm in Cadiz the other day with about 2500 fighting bulls there. They were running the four-year olds (to exercise them for the bullfights) several times a day. Around 250 of them together. All intact!
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Old May 2nd 2010, 8:14 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by Lenox
I went to a 'toro bravo' farm in Cadiz the other day with about 2500 fighting bulls there. They were running the four-year olds (to exercise them for the bullfights) several times a day. Around 250 of them together. All intact!
.. and all fighting bulls.... ask anyone who has eaten their meat, its tough, stringy and not very pleasant, which is why its nearly always given away and stewed.
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Old May 2nd 2010, 8:14 pm
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

I've walked freely amongst groups of bull-beef cattle in fields,in buildings and also bulls bred for breeding,normally indoors, with no problems.
However as they become fully mature both the taint factor and the Millwall factor can come into play.
I've been battered by a mature bull or two in my time but as with our own species never underestimate the females, especially with very young calves at foot, which can make most bulls seem quite placid by comparison.
Been some cases in the UK recently of walkers accompanied by their pet dogs being attacked and on occasions killed by enraged females/cows which considered a harmless dog to be a major threat.
Have experienced the same myself when a whole herd with young calves nearly finished me off just because my jack russell jumped out the tractor window after spotting a rabbit.
An attack by a single bull was nothing in comparison to that.

Last edited by Dick Dasterdly; May 2nd 2010 at 9:06 pm. Reason: correction
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Old May 3rd 2010, 7:39 am
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by elspeth sinclair
There are many more than 20-50 small villages and towns of up to 40,000 inhabitants in Valencia alone using acts of cruelty as parts of their fiestas so we must be considering thousands of towns and villages throughout Spain. You'll have to get out of Madrid. As a retired crofter I have to say I've never heard of cows raised for meat only bull calves which in Scotland are killed at three years old for prime quality beef. Old cows after 10 to 15 years as breeding cows are turned in to mince or animal food. In Spain they kill their beef too young hence tasteless meat.

Oh my God, you havent a clue

Ever been to the North Coast? Try eating Asturian, Galician or Basque meat. It's some of the best in the world.

Cow's meat is bad in the South of course as there's not so much grass around!
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Old May 3rd 2010, 9:23 am
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by cricketman
Oh my God, you havent a clue

Ever been to the North Coast? Try eating Asturian, Galician or Basque meat. It's some of the best in the world.

Cow's meat is bad in the South of course as there's not so much grass around!
I have to say that in contrast to the cruelty factor which is so often mentioned in Spain,I have never seen small time farmers any more devoted to the well being of their cattle, than some of the older generation I came across in Asturias, where I got the distinct impression that the welfare of their livestock often came well before their own.
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Old May 3rd 2010, 10:18 am
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Default Re: Toros - tide turning?

Originally Posted by Dick Dasterdly
I have to say that in contrast to the cruelty factor which is so often mentioned in Spain,I have never seen small time farmers any more devoted to the well being of their cattle, than some of the older generation I came across in Asturias, where I got the distinct impression that the welfare of their livestock often came well before their own.
Yes there is a long tradition of small holdings in Asturias where people will have their house and a small plot of land with a huerta for vegetables and then a few cows/pigs and chickens to bring home an income.

And of course there are famers who devote themselves to just one of these trades, but they are usually a small scale too. The eggs, milk, cheese, embutidos and beef you can get at the markets that come from these people is out of this world! OK I have been a little brain-washed by the Asturians but it's because I am so in love with it. I didnt even like food until I came to Spain

The best roast beef I've ever had was in the mountains of Asturias and even something so simple like tortilla de patata is just incredible because the eggs have so much flavour.

Btw, I hear a lot of British people say Spanish meat is poor quality. I always tell them that they shop at the wrong places (i.e. Lidl, Iceland and Mercadona). Hipercor is a paradise for top quality Spanish meat products. But (and it is a big but) good quality costs a lot of money and so many British people I've spoken to say they are not willing to pay those prices. The markets in the South of Spain are ofvariable quality but there is usually a least one good one in each city e.g. the central market in Malaga is very good. There are even a couple of good stalls in the Fuengirola market although they are surrounded by not so good ones.
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