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Tax avoidence/evasion

Tax avoidence/evasion

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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 3:59 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by amideislas
Well, you illustrate precisely what I mean by "wealth as an entitlement" as opposed to "earned wealth". It is a fundamental difference in ideology.

In the former, wealth (wherever that comes from??) is "distributed" to the population - a "basic right" as you suggest.

In the latter, wealth is not a basic "right", it must be earned. In that case, unfortunately, some will be wealthy, some will not. Fortunately, in the US, the middle class still outnumbers both the rich and poor by many orders of magnitude, and it is indeed still possible to earn wealth and enjoy it without it being taken from you.

So, as long as we Europeans have the "wealthy" to pay for it all, we'll be just dandy. However, penalising that wealth (as you often advise) naturally makes it much harder to earn, and take from those who do - and "distribute" to those who are "entitled" to it.

Sound remotely reminiscent of anything you've recently heard on the news? No wonder people are pissed. Goddam wealthy barstewards. We're entitled!

Wealth is not a right but a decent free education and access to free health treatment etc is a basic right.
It is morally justifiable for those with to pay for those who are have nots.
You will say that nothing is free and has to be paid for by someone .
In a fair society those who have should pay more than those who have not.
Without tax the idea of a fair society would be impossible because it is human nature to look after ourselves not our neighbours.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 4:29 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR
Wealth is not a right but a decent free education and access to free health treatment etc is a basic right.
It is morally justifiable for those with to pay for those who are have nots.
You will say that nothing is free and has to be paid for by someone .
In a fair society those who have should pay more than those who have not.
Without tax the idea of a fair society would be impossible because it is human nature to look after ourselves not our neighbours.
Please, I certainly do not stand against education, healthcare, or any of those things. I certainly don't believe there should be no tax - you're putting words in my mouth.

The difference, is that they believe you have to earn it, whilst you believe it is an entitlement. OK, you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else.

But in the end, somebody still has to pay for it.

We are incrementally living with less and paying more for it. Yet you suggest we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have. Because it's "fairer". We are "entitled", after all.

Perhaps it's fairer that we are all poorer together. I just don't fancy being poor, and I'd prefer to have the opportunity to earn it, rather than waiting for my entitlements (which frankly doesn't look too good at present). I doubt many others do either. In fact, right now, there are quite a few Europeans complaining about exactly that - and rightfully so.

Just for the record, it's worth pointing out that there is a "free" education system in the US not unlike anywhere else, grants pay for millions of people's higher education - especially when students exhibit that they earn it by keeping a high grade point average, and healthcare is now available to everyone.

But yes, those who earn more, get more. Somehow I think that's fair, too.

Last edited by amideislas; Feb 23rd 2015 at 4:34 pm.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 5:03 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

There is no way anyone in their right mind would want to swop the US systems for what we have in most of Europe.
If we are taxed more then it is a price worth paying.
If we had a system where everyone from the employed on a decent living wage to the multimillionaire both paid the same % of their incomes in tax I do not know of anyone who would complain.
What each did with their remaining disposable incomes would be up to then.
But that is not the case and never will be while their is an industry that provides tax evasion/avoidance to those who can afford to pay for it.
Please can anyone tell me what is wrong with the employed person who earns £30,000 year paying lets say 30% on his income in tax and forcing someone like Bernie Eccleston or Green ( topshop ) into the same % of their earnings to the UK exchequer ??
If you reduced the tax bill of the employed to 5% the Greens etc of this world would try to avoid paying even as little as that.
Its human nature .
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 5:13 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Maybe you've been on another planet for the past 6 years or so.

Erm, Europe is in deep shit, and has been for about 7 years now. And the prognosis does not look good. You might want to study up on that.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 5:15 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by amideislas
Please, I certainly do not stand against education, healthcare, or any of those things. I certainly don't believe there should be no tax - you're putting words in my mouth.

The difference, is that they believe you have to earn it, whilst you believe it is an entitlement. OK, you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else.

But in the end, somebody still has to pay for it.

We are incrementally living with less and paying more for it. Yet you suggest we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have. Because it's "fairer". We are "entitled", after all.

Perhaps it's fairer that we are all poorer together. I just don't fancy being poor, and I'd prefer to have the opportunity to earn it, rather than waiting for my entitlements (which frankly doesn't look too good at present). I doubt many others do either. In fact, right now, there are quite a few Europeans complaining about exactly that - and rightfully so.

Just for the record, it's worth pointing out that there is a "free" education system in the US not unlike anywhere else, grants pay for millions of people's higher education - especially when students exhibit that they earn it by keeping a high grade point average, and healthcare is now available to everyone.

But yes, those who earn more, get more. Somehow I think that's fair, too.
Blimey - who's putting words into whose mouth?

Nobody said you stand against 'education, healthcare, or any of those things' and I don't think anyone has said 'we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have'. You are fighting straw men.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 5:24 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by amideislas
Maybe you've been on another planet for the past 6 years or so.

Erm, Europe is in deep shit, and has been for about 7 years now. And the prognosis does not look good. You might want to study up on that.
Do you accept that the tax bill should be fair and that whoever you are, however much you earn that everyone should pay the same % , that being the basic rate of tax ??
Those employed and paying the higher rates of tx are even more unfairly treated compared to the Greens, Ecclestone, Mittals etc.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 6:24 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR
Do you accept that the tax bill should be fair and that whoever you are, however much you earn that everyone should pay the same % , that being the basic rate of tax ??
Those employed and paying the higher rates of tx are even more unfairly treated compared to the Greens, Ecclestone, Mittals etc.
That's not been a part of the debate so far, but are you suggesting a flat tax? Yes, I might be favourable to that idea, yes.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 6:27 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by amideislas
That's not been a part of the debate so far, but are you suggesting a flat tax? Yes, I might be favourable to that idea, yes.
I thought that you would agree to that but the price would be the end of the tax evasion/avoidance industry and the closure of tax havens.

Turkeys do not vote for christmas.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 6:27 pm
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by jimenato
Blimey - who's putting words into whose mouth?

Nobody said you stand against 'education, healthcare, or any of those things' and I don't think anyone has said 'we should enhance that condition with even more spending of what we don't have'. You are fighting straw men.
He's accused me of being against education, healthcare, etc. in the past - on multiple occasions. And he did directly imply that the debate is about tax/no tax, which it most certainly is not.

And through the entire discussion he's been advocating increased spending at a time when we can least afford it.

Originally Posted by EMR
Without tax the idea of a fair society would be impossible because it is human nature to look after ourselves not our neighbours.

Last edited by amideislas; Feb 23rd 2015 at 6:52 pm.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 6:31 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by EMR
I thought that you would agree to that but the price would be the end of the tax evasion/avoidance industry and the closure of tax havens.

Turkeys do not vote for christmas.
This is getting nonsensical now. Have a good evening. Try to hold back on the sherry.
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Old Feb 23rd 2015, 6:35 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Originally Posted by amideislas
This is getting nonsensical now. Have a good evening. Try to hold back on the sherry.
Ye it is nonsense to expect those who have the opportunity to avoid /evade tax to think about paying their fair share.
Therefore the only alternative is increasing legislation and control.
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Old Feb 24th 2015, 6:17 am
  #27  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

The "wealth distribution" model, which aspires to "equalize" wealth across the masses, actually does precisely that.

It creates a regulated "homogenous working class", that exhibits a narrow wealth gap amongst itself, overseen and managed by a paternal state, which in return, transfers the burden of responsibility for individual well-being from the masses that serve and fund the state, to the state which oversees it.

Most importantly, the model also serves to create a ruling class, effectively the regulator of wealth and the distribution of it to the working class.

As a testament to our success in achieving precisely that "wealth distribution" model, our current EC president is properly amongst the most experienced in precisely the "wealth management" this model requires:

Juncker defends Luxembourg tax arrangements as legal


Luxembourg tax files: Juncker ‘solved problems’ for Amazon move

And as some suggest as a solution, more unaccountable spending of tax revenue extracted from the working class does indeed appear to be favoured wisdom amongst the ruling class:

The scandal of Europe’s ever-expanding budget


In concert with that, an interesting viewpoint:

Over-taxed, over-regulated, over-watched: Under-represented

EUROPE: Democracy is neither an American monopoly for export, nor a British privilege. It is an Athenian invention and is well described by Pericles in 430 BC, in his epitaph speech delivered at the Keramikos cemetery in honor of the first dead in the Peloponnesian war.

The original concept of democracy was based on the direct vote of all eligible (adult males) Athenian citizens who gathered at Pnyka, a hill next to the Acropolis of Athens and voted for each and every issue of common concern.

If Europe were a direct democracy of the aforementioned type (which is not impossible to structure in the age of e-government), citizens would not be over-taxed, over-regulated or over-watched. Indeed it is these three ‘overs’ that have gradually frustrated our societies, developing a potential danger for incidents of unpredictable and uncontrolled social unrest.

Indeed, in a Europe of direct democracy, the administrations at national and EU level, would be reduced in size, and in the direct service of the citizens.

Furthermore, government/state services would be tailored to the real needs of societies and citizens, and operate effectively and efficiently. Citizens able to vote directly, would be voting for their interests and not for the interests of the financial speculators supporting their elected representatives.

This, however, practically cannot be currently done (except perhaps for the Swiss model).

If the mainstream parties leading and ruling Europe don’t start to clean up their houses, the current trends could evolve into an entirely new beast.

The distance between a capital-D-Democracy and a pseudo democratic parliamentary dictatorship is not great.

We have come to live in a world where representative democracy means representation of stakeholders yielding the biggest influence.

This is not how representative democracy was imagined.

Indeed political leaders are meant to represent their citizens, not their sponsors or even friends.

However, it is incredible, how incredulous any modern attempts at fighting against corruption, coercion, or capital persuasion is. Indeed the fresh “breeze of democracy” blows from the extremes of Left and Right.

While the extremes may be on the rise in the last few years, their populist rhetoric has so far proven to consist of nothing more than words.

Naturally, while on a European level parties advocating the rights of the people from between the centre-left to centre-right on the political spectrum, would most of the time vote along the lines of the EPP or PES, ALDE or even ECR, any new breed of EU political party/ies should remain out of the established clientelistic system that currently reigns.

Where we ask, can we find a mainstream party to fight for the rights of the mainstream?

Because if the mainstream parties leading and ruling Europe don’t start to clean up their houses, the current trends could evolve into an entirely new beast.

Be prepared to either be consumed by the political extremes, or, preferably, be cast aside by new, transparent, entities that embody the values of direct democracy.

Last edited by amideislas; Feb 24th 2015 at 6:52 am.
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Old Feb 24th 2015, 7:32 am
  #28  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

You are not suggesting are you that we should return to the days of low tax and regulation .
Where is your evidence that in those times "wealth " trickled down and that the population was better off than it is today.

I look forward to your posts but sometimes I think that if this were mid victorian times your stance would be that raising the age at which children could work to 14, removing children from the mines etc was unecessary involvement by Government in practices which are legal and improve the profitabilty of companies.

The trickle down theory is just as much of a pipe dream as the social state where all are equal and everyone is treated fairly.
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Old Feb 24th 2015, 8:22 am
  #29  
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion





Why has Europe's economy done worse than the US?

Two-Speed Recovery: US vs. EU


U.S. Economy Stays Afloat As Europe Sinks Into Recession

The Eurozone's 'Winner-Take-All' Political Economy: Institutional Choices, Widening Inequality, and Returning North-South Gap

Redistribution policies at the root of the Eurozone Crisis

Last edited by amideislas; Feb 24th 2015 at 9:56 am.
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Old Feb 24th 2015, 10:38 am
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Default Re: Tax avoidence/evasion

Behind Europe’s War on Low Taxes

The reality of being a small country on the edge of Europe, with no land bridge to the Continent, is that without tax competition Ireland is not an attractive place to locate a European headquarters. It seems to have occurred to nobody in power in a major European economy that instead of effectively banning the Irish policy, it would be simpler to simply replicate it. After all, if Ireland can do it, so, surely, can the Germans. With added efficiency.

It is an unusual and troubling development that the response to the most spectacularly successful corporate-tax regime in Europe has been to seek its demise. Indeed, what Europe needs more than anything is increased competition and economic vibrancy. The high-tax model that has dominated European political and economic thought since World War II is sailing into choppy waters. With a pensions crisis looming, an economy that gastropods would call sluggish and few, if any, obvious solutions, the answer is not to harmonize further. It is to encourage innovation.

The EU may have a case about Apple and Ireland as it relates to transparency, and certainly, any special deals and state aid in that case should be as widely reviled and denounced as any of the bank bailouts of recent years. To pretend, however, that this investigation is about a single case is as naive as to believe that the EU ever intended to ratify its guarantees to Ireland in 2009. The probe into Dublin’s deal with Apple is about the desire of European politicians to break faith with competition in the name of envy and greed. Ireland’s capitulation to that pressure this week is one more milestone on the road to permanent European stagnation.
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