EMR

If you believe that someone who has never voted for Labour has in fact once voted conservative is a socialist then you must be so far to the right that even Genghis Khan would be uncomfortable in your company.

It is no wonder that you feel more comfortable with US right wing Republican
views , it explains a lot.

I have just looked outside, the sky is not falling in.

amideislas

Well, Your "tax + tax + more tax + some more tax" and "social fairness through generous benefits" narratives certainly don't sound conservative, but then, little of what you claim ever proves to have merit, so I can only say you're "entitled" to your opinion.

With respect to European decline, you are also entitled to your opinion, but from a purely factual perspective, the trajectory has been steadily downward since about 2007. And despite a few upward bumps after the introduction of the Euro, in a macro perspective, it's actually been in a downward trajectory since it's introduction.

Europe is a heavily burdened economy, suffering from a large population, import-heavy economy, limited resources to export, generous social benefits, and the highest tax burdens in the world (on individuals), all resulting in high competition for resources, housing, living standards, income... and most Europeans simply don't have disposable income to spend, so it's not a consumer driven economy either.

You can't lower the population. You can't find new things to export. There's only a few things left that make any mathematical or economic sense:

a) reduce spending

b) cut taxes on individuals (putting more income in hands of consumers to stimulate spending and economic growth)

c) increase tax revenues

Unfortunately, c) is the only thing in sight. The other two are ideologically out of the question.

So, after we get through our newest "tax evasion" craze, closing any low or even reasonably taxed opportunities, raising corporate and capital gains taxes to high levels, then our economy will become more tax-based than trade-based.

It will also eliminate the last remaining competitive advantage for the European economy, and sending capital (and the tax revenue it generates) flying to everywhere else on the planet. And as industry slowly moves away, unemployment will only go up (resulting in more tax consumers than tax payers), and European goods will again become uncompetitive in the market - so we can't export our way out of it. No significant positive result. There's only downside.

The question is, after our economy becomes fundamentally more reliant on tax rather than trade, where does the money come from to sustain it?

The problem is that you can't tax tax (OK, we already impose some taxes on tax, but it's only here and there - at least at present).

Despite your desire to believe it's all a "chicken little" story, it's not going to happen today or tomorrow, but only likely to continue in a gently sloping downward trajectory for some time to come...

...at least until there is a fundamental and complete overhaul of the system, and that's not likely anytime soon. Until things get really bad, a complete overhaul is nothing less than political suicide.

EMR

What some think of is a trend to increase taxation is in fact a focus on those individuals and companies who avoid their responibility to the societies they operate in.
How can anyone believe that it is wrong for the Amazons,Starbucks, Googles, Apples etc to pay their fair tax on the earnings in those countries where they operate.
Why should the small employer trade at a disadvantage because he cannot afford expensive tax consultants and lawyers.
The UK is increasing income levels before tax is due , what is wrong trying to make the tax evaders/avoiders pay for it.

amideislas

Oh, and you did (expectably) divert away from my original question, so I'll ask again:

Did you or did you not start this argument on the basis of a patently false presumption?

amideislas

Nobody argued any of that. Except you.

EMR

Are you in favour of individuals and companies paying tax in those countries where they have their economic activity .

If yes then you must be in favour of the move by the EU towards tax harmonisation .

amideislas

yes.

NO, not without a fundamental overhaul of the entire system from the ground up. Otherwise, we become a completely unsustainable tax-based economy (in fact, we're already halfway there, which explains volumes about our continuing decline).

Europe's problem isn't Amazon, Google or Apple or any of the many European industrial giants that have "evaded" their "fair share" of the tax system all along (although they make a wonderfully convenient political scapegoat). In fact, they have done precisely what the system encourages them to do.

Europe's problem is systematic from the ground up. It inherently favours the ruling class and its peers, and forces the average taxpayer to pay for it.

That is Europe's problem. And until that is fixed, nothing will change.

EMR

I agree with you nothing will change, tghose who pay little or no tax will continue to do so. Glbobal companies will pay the absolute minimum will pay as little as they can get away with.
Its the capitalist dream that you seem to believe is the way forward for society.

amideislas

The "Socialist Dream" is "more of the same"?

Be careful what you wish for.

EMR

Interesting to see that the current UK CONSERVATIVE government is making a reduction in tax avoidance and increased penalties for those involved in tax evasion including accountants and tax advisors a cornerstone of its policies.
Obviously much of it is electoral rhetoric but the average UK tax payer will expect to see results.
One of those areas to be attacked will be overseas based avaoidance/evasion schemes, no doubt following on from Millipedes recent annoucements.

Gordon Barlow

Every expat ought to at least be aware of the possibility of diverting some of his income and/or ownership of some of his assets to a tax-free domicile. Not so much when he's young and has nothing worth taxing and doesn't consider the future, but certainly before he settles down. Depends how he earns his money, of course, and it's not everyone can take advantage of what's out there; but you never know...

EMR

The UK government is now planning to impose a 25% tax on the profits it believes companies domiciled overseas are making on their UK activities. BBC news.
This will hit companies such as those domicled in places like the Cayman Islands.

Gordon Barlow

I've been out of the game a long time, but I thought overseas companies always did pay tax on profits made in the UK. The whole idea of "offshore" havens is that profits are generated in the havens and not in taxing jurisdictions. Off the top of my head, I would say that the new proposal will take out the "cowboys", while not touching companies who take advice from professional tax-experts.