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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Spain (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/)
-   -   Smoking ban AGAIN!!! (https://britishexpats.com/forum/spain-75/smoking-ban-again-686569/)

steviedeluxe Oct 22nd 2010 8:30 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by Madridboy (Post 8937232)
I understand your point but most people use the Metro because they have to, people go to bars, cafes, restaurants, etc. because they want to. Take away the choice to smoke during a meal, drink, etc. and people may choose to eat, drink, etc. in their homes more often. It's all about freedom of choice.
Many years ago a friend owned a gym that also had a bar downstairs. One of the girls that worked in the bar often complained about people smoking in the bar and my friend that owned the bar didn't like people smoking either but as he said, if he made it a non smoking bar he'd loose most of his customers.
As the crisis came in over here I saw less and less people in the bars and heard more and more people having fiestas in their homes, people didn't stop doing what they enjoyed, they just changed their venue.
Well yes, bars will close because of this. The figures in the UK have been frightening, something like 50 or 60 pubs a week closing. Of course there are other factors, and maybe a certain percentage were going to close anyway, but it's sad to walk around a place you once knew and discover 5 or 6 traditional pubs have closed, or become restaurants. Tim Martin (of Wetherspoons fame) is no advocate of smoking in pubs (quite the reverse) but he maintains that government measures over the years have resulted in 1000s of pubs (and associated livelihoods) disappearing. Quoting news that new pubs are opening (which as you say doesn't mean they'll survive) doesn't change the dramatic long term trend. There again, maybe the bar/pub has had its day in society :(
Edit: some more reasons why the pubs are closing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...-oft-pub-trade
The pub ownership model isn't working either. Brimming with free market zeal the Tories forced the breweries to sell off their pubs in the early 1990s. Thatcherite dogma said it was anti-competitive that pub tenants had to buy beer exclusively from their brewery owners. Smart City types formed 'PubCos' which acquired these estates (Punch Taverns, for example, owes more than £3bn, or £464,000 for each of its pubs), but in the majority of cases, and catastrophically for the industry, the "tie" which obliges the tenant to buy beer from its landlord remained in place. So now most pubs are not only paying large rents but also have to buy their beer at grossly inflated prices, which if charged by a supermarket would cause a customer to shop elsewhere.

rugbymatt Oct 22nd 2010 8:35 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Do people really think that the smoking ban is the cause of these so called pub closures in the UK?

steviedeluxe Oct 22nd 2010 8:37 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937238)
Do people really think that the smoking ban is the cause of these so called pub closures in the UK?
Do people really think it's not been a factor?

Madridboy Oct 22nd 2010 8:38 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe (Post 8937234)
Well yes, bars will close because of this. The figures in the UK have been frightening, something like 50 or 60 pubs a week closing. Of course there are other factors, and maybe a certain percentage were going to close anyway, but it's sad to walk around a place you once knew and discover 5 or 6 traditional pubs have closed, or become restaurants. Tim Martin (of Wetherspoons fame) is no advocate of smoking in pubs (quite the reverse) but he maintains that government measures over the years have resulted in 1000s of pubs (and associated livelihoods) disappearing. Quoting news that new pubs are opening (which as you say doesn't mean they'll survive) doesn't change the dramatic long term trend. There again, maybe the bar/pub has had its day in society :(
Again you make some good points. It may be more to do with the difference in social lives between the Spanish & the British (daren't say English I'd get the Scots, Welsh & Irish complaining lol). IMO I've found the Spanish to be more outdoor people and have more of a tendancy to gather in large groups of family or friends for a get-together but this could also be weather related. Maybe if the government were to change the law in spring time people could choose to sit out on a terrace and give everyone time to adjust as winter came in but to change the law in January when it's below freezing (and you know how cold Madrid is in winter) people aren't going to have that option. Who wants to nip outside for a cig' inbetween courses when it's cold enough outside to freeze the parts of a brass monkey?

Madridboy Oct 22nd 2010 8:39 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937238)
Do people really think that the smoking ban is the cause of these so called pub closures in the UK?
When I had my shop in Benidorm I heard it first hand from tourists who had lost their local bars or used to work in bars.

rugbymatt Oct 22nd 2010 8:48 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by steviedeluxe (Post 8937241)
Do people really think it's not been a factor?
Originally Posted by Madridboy (Post 8937244)
When I had my shop in Benidorm I heard it first hand from tourists who had lost their local bars or used to work in bars.
It may well have been a factor but we are assuming that the greater bulk of the UK smoked... it didn't. Pubs were already in decline well before the smoking ban came in, there were reports in the industry that many of the pubco's didn't give two shits about pubs anyway and they simply bought the best pubs they could to turn them into houses... much more profitable. The tightening of the drink driving laws was the beginning of the end for the "local" pub in the UK and its that rural, local pub that is in decline, the ones in towns and cities are NOT struggling, in fact some pubcos are now amending their cynical closure program and investing heavily in urban areas.
I honestly can't believe though that people bitch and moan about smoking and its effects but don't mention a word about the huge tax on alcohol and what damage the supermarkets are doing! Its THAT and pretty much THAT alone that is killing pubs. As I said last year in this VERY SAME discussion, pubs that do food are now starting to realise that the smoking ban means people tend to bring their families more, that means that they are beginning to see more bums on seats and the role of the traditional pub is gone, its over, and I for one will not mourn the death of the smoke filled grotty shit holes that we used to have.

agoreira Oct 22nd 2010 8:54 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937238)
Do people really think that the smoking ban is the cause of these so called pub closures in the UK?
Apparently, yes. :) In my neck of the woods, I can't think of any local pubs that have closed since the ban came in. You see the drug addicts outside having their fix, they all have accepted it. It's that or stay home, which they all said they would, but I see no sign of it.

Madridboy Oct 22nd 2010 8:55 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937260)
It may well have been a factor but we are assuming that the greater bulk of the UK smoked... it didn't. Pubs were already in decline well before the smoking ban came in, there were reports in the industry that many of the pubco's didn't give two shits about pubs anyway and they simply bought the best pubs they could to turn them into houses... much more profitable. The tightening of the drink driving laws was the beginning of the end for the "local" pub in the UK and its that rural, local pub that is in decline, the ones in towns and cities are NOT struggling, in fact some pubcos are now amending their cynical closure program and investing heavily in urban areas.
I honestly can't believe though that people bitch and moan about smoking and its effects but don't mention a word about the huge tax on alcohol and what damage the supermarkets are doing! Its THAT and pretty much THAT alone that is killing pubs. As I said last year in this VERY SAME discussion, pubs that do food are now starting to realise that the smoking ban means people tend to bring their families more, that means that they are beginning to see more bums on seats and the role of the traditional pub is gone, its over, and I for one will not mourn the death of the smoke filled grotty shit holes that we used to have.
The tightening of drink driving laws certainly did play a huge part in rural bars closing and I, as many, saw it first hand when in the UK. It's easy to blame the supermarkets for the decline in the "pub trade" but when this started to happen many bars chose to raise their prices to compensate for the lack of customers which shot themselves in the foot.
Also many of the brewerys that own/owned pubs were and still are extremely greedy and make it almost impossible for the landlord/landlay to make a profit, I know a family that took over a large restaurant type pub and were having a nightmare trying to make a living out of it as the brewery wanted a cut on literalt everything they sold on top of the rent. More often than not it's greed that closes bars.

agoreira Oct 22nd 2010 9:05 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937260)
It may well have been a factor but we are assuming that the greater bulk of the UK smoked... it didn't. Pubs were already in decline well before the smoking ban came in, there were reports in the industry that many of the pubco's didn't give two shits about pubs anyway and they simply bought the best pubs they could to turn them into houses... much more profitable. The tightening of the drink driving laws was the beginning of the end for the "local" pub in the UK and its that rural, local pub that is in decline, the ones in towns and cities are NOT struggling, in fact some pubcos are now amending their cynical closure program and investing heavily in urban areas.
I honestly can't believe though that people bitch and moan about smoking and its effects but don't mention a word about the huge tax on alcohol and what damage the supermarkets are doing! Its THAT and pretty much THAT alone that is killing pubs. As I said last year in this VERY SAME discussion, pubs that do food are now starting to realise that the smoking ban means people tend to bring their families more, that means that they are beginning to see more bums on seats and the role of the traditional pub is gone, its over, and I for one will not mourn the death of the smoke filled grotty shit holes that we used to have.
Agree with pretty much all that, if people were claiming country pubs were suffering because of the drink/driving, I'd be in full agreement, but as you say, town pubs are doing well. Although country pubs here seem to do well, but nearly all do food. I'll also raise a glass to smoke free pubs and restaurants.

rugbymatt Oct 22nd 2010 9:08 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by Madridboy (Post 8937267)
It's easy to blame the supermarkets for the decline in the "pub trade" but when this started to happen many bars chose to raise their prices to compensate for the lack of customers which shot themselves in the foot.
Thats because there is not parity between what the pubs have to pay for alcohol and what the supermarkets do. Yeah I know its all about economies of scale, I understand that, but when supermarkets sell drink as a loss leader just so that they can control the market, thats what kills the trade, and I am part of it, I don't deny, but if the pubs could afford to sell at a price we like I'd spend more time in the pub.... hmm... not really thought this out have I?

rugbymatt Oct 22nd 2010 9:11 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by agoreira (Post 8937275)
Agree with pretty much all that, if people were claiming country pubs were suffering because of the drink/driving, I'd be in full agreement, but as you say, town pubs are doing well. Although country pubs here seem to do well, but nearly all do food. I'll also raise a glass to smoke free pubs and restaurants.
Thats the thing, where a pub used to focus on wet trade it now has to focus on dry trade and yet it still has to portray the image of a traditional country pub. I don't mourn the drink driving crackdown at all, the amount of it that goes on in Dartmoor is really quite shocking but then thats the police forces fault, they know it goes on but see it as less of a problem because its such a low population density but thats another story.

Chiclanagir Oct 22nd 2010 10:00 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937284)
Thats the thing, where a pub used to focus on wet trade it now has to focus on dry trade and yet it still has to portray the image of a traditional country pub. I don't mourn the drink driving crackdown at all, the amount of it that goes on in Dartmoor is really quite shocking but then thats the police forces fault, they know it goes on but see it as less of a problem because its such a low population density but thats another story.
There are some fantastic pubs on Dartmoor, nothing I liked better than a drive out on a Sunday lunchtime especially fond of Widecombe.

rugbymatt Oct 22nd 2010 10:04 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by Chiclanagir (Post 8937324)
There are some fantastic pubs on Dartmoor, nothing I liked better than a drive out on a Sunday lunchtime especially fond of Widecombe.
Yeah, sadly one of the best ones is ruined now, the Old Inn... and the other is so cliquey its really not pleasant, but yeah, some nice pubs for sure.

Chiclanagir Oct 22nd 2010 10:05 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by rugbymatt (Post 8937326)
Yeah, sadly one of the best ones is ruined now, the Old Inn... and the other is so cliquey its really not pleasant, but yeah, some nice pubs for sure.
Why is it ruined?

rugbymatt Oct 22nd 2010 10:07 pm
Re: Smoking ban AGAIN!!!
 
Originally Posted by Chiclanagir (Post 8937328)
Why is it ruined?
Been bought by a Pubco... ripped it to pieces and looks like a gastro pub now.... and worse thing? No bar stools! Why? Why do they do that? Shower of bastards!


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