Do you, like me get peed off
Jul 4th 2013 | 4:36 am
#61
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 378
From: Here and there
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
seems like you came from the same UK as i did. it made no difference where you came from, you all mucked in together.
but that has changed - drastically.
we now have communities for one nationality after another. preference is given for donations so they can have "their" social meeting place or club whilst everyone else has to "go to the pub".
we have councils paying fortunes to get a string of leaflets printed in 16 different languages/dialects to "make them feel at home". whilst I sweated over a hot computer to fill in all my Spanish (only) documents.
we have school classes where indiginous Brit children are in the minority and as in the case of my daughter - visited a mosque before visiting a CofE church as a school project. Where Brit kids are learning more of other languages than they are of our own national language.
that isn't being racist, it is just a commentary of our times that we bend over backwards to let them in, and wonder why it is us that isn't integrating with them.
Surely it should be the other way round
Integration takes time, it needs to have a desire by all parties, it cannot come from a Govt law or edict or from DM headlines. To make it happen overnight then it causes rifts, splits and problems
but that has changed - drastically.
we now have communities for one nationality after another. preference is given for donations so they can have "their" social meeting place or club whilst everyone else has to "go to the pub".
we have councils paying fortunes to get a string of leaflets printed in 16 different languages/dialects to "make them feel at home". whilst I sweated over a hot computer to fill in all my Spanish (only) documents.
we have school classes where indiginous Brit children are in the minority and as in the case of my daughter - visited a mosque before visiting a CofE church as a school project. Where Brit kids are learning more of other languages than they are of our own national language.
that isn't being racist, it is just a commentary of our times that we bend over backwards to let them in, and wonder why it is us that isn't integrating with them.
Surely it should be the other way round
Integration takes time, it needs to have a desire by all parties, it cannot come from a Govt law or edict or from DM headlines. To make it happen overnight then it causes rifts, splits and problems
Regarding kids being taken to a mosque before a Church, this is actually the parents fault.
It's a pity more so called Christians don't take their own religion seriously enough to bother to take their kids to a Church before they are five. If the parents can't be arised what has it got to do with a school? A school is about Education not about Religion. If the parents obviously can't be bothered to give a kid knowledge of the endemic religion of their own Country then why the heck should a school or society in general bother what way round a couple of school trips are organised. It was probably only logistics that made it fall that way and that the Mosque were more accommodating offering dates up than the Church.
Last edited by jennieJ; Jul 4th 2013 at 4:44 am.
Jul 4th 2013 | 6:35 pm
#62
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 12,053
From: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
Has it changed that drastically ? I still see people in the UK 'mucking in' its just in a more multicultural way. I have about three maybe four friends of the kind you think you could call at any time night and day in an emergency and one of them is a middle aged Bengali woman who I have been mates with for 15 plus years and her Irish husband. I don't see this weird segregated society you see. The costs of translating leaflets is peanuts with all the modern auto translators, I reckon the Spanish just can't be bothered to do it. A sort of general slackness and maybe an unconscious decision making process as well, to try and make things harder for what they still see as Foreigners. It wouldn't hurt to have things in more than one language expats bring a fair amount of money into the Country at the end of the day and one assumes the Spanish want people to comply with their laws and bureaucracy, it would make sense to assist if its a low cost option, would probably bring in more money long term after the initial investment.
Regarding kids being taken to a mosque before a Church, this is actually the parents fault.
It's a pity more so called Christians don't take their own religion seriously enough to bother to take their kids to a Church before they are five. If the parents can't be arised what has it got to do with a school? A school is about Education not about Religion. If the parents obviously can't be bothered to give a kid knowledge of the endemic religion of their own Country then why the heck should a school or society in general bother what way round a couple of school trips are organised. It was probably only logistics that made it fall that way and that the Mosque were more accommodating offering dates up than the Church.
Regarding kids being taken to a mosque before a Church, this is actually the parents fault.
It's a pity more so called Christians don't take their own religion seriously enough to bother to take their kids to a Church before they are five. If the parents can't be arised what has it got to do with a school? A school is about Education not about Religion. If the parents obviously can't be bothered to give a kid knowledge of the endemic religion of their own Country then why the heck should a school or society in general bother what way round a couple of school trips are organised. It was probably only logistics that made it fall that way and that the Mosque were more accommodating offering dates up than the Church.
although my daughter was given the church experience by us perhaps you should be aware that organising a coach and taking a class 70miles to see the Hyde Park mosque is a little bit more than popping round the corner, which is where one of Britains cathedrals is situated.
(But then it could be my fault as when on a visit to London I took my daughter past that mosque at dusk, when it had all its lights on, as it is a very impressive sight. She told her teacher and Bingo - school trip!)
Jul 4th 2013 | 7:08 pm
#63
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,631
From: Aracena area Huelva Spain
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
The great thing about Spain (for expat, native-born and visitors) is that whatever you look for, you will find. The experts call it confirmation bias. So if you want to think that Spanish culture is superior to that from other countries, you will find instances that support your view. If you think that all brits in Spain are drunken ignoramuses then you'll see some and think "A ha!"
If you want to believe that the UK is full of unhappy people all on the rat-race then I'm sure you can find that, too.
The point is, all of these things are true - and none of them are. Spain is just another country. In parts wealthier than others with a strong cultural tradition and technological innovation. In other parts a poor, deserted land with high unemployment scraping an agrarian existence. Within those extremes you can find any combination of the good, the bad and the ugly that supports whatever preconceptions you may have.
The same goes for expats. Some are indistinguishable from Spanish-born who have never left the country, others are living "England in the sun" but most are somewhere in between.
ISTM the key to living a satisfied, optimistic live out here is to just get on with it and enjoy the good while avoiding the bad. I realise that not everyone wants to live a satisfied, optimistic live - but those can continue as they are. The thing to remember is that no matter what you think of the other people in your view of the world, ultimately none of them are better or worse individuals than you are - just different.
If you want to believe that the UK is full of unhappy people all on the rat-race then I'm sure you can find that, too.
The point is, all of these things are true - and none of them are. Spain is just another country. In parts wealthier than others with a strong cultural tradition and technological innovation. In other parts a poor, deserted land with high unemployment scraping an agrarian existence. Within those extremes you can find any combination of the good, the bad and the ugly that supports whatever preconceptions you may have.
The same goes for expats. Some are indistinguishable from Spanish-born who have never left the country, others are living "England in the sun" but most are somewhere in between.
ISTM the key to living a satisfied, optimistic live out here is to just get on with it and enjoy the good while avoiding the bad. I realise that not everyone wants to live a satisfied, optimistic live - but those can continue as they are. The thing to remember is that no matter what you think of the other people in your view of the world, ultimately none of them are better or worse individuals than you are - just different.
Jul 4th 2013 | 10:56 pm
#64
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,753
From: Alicante province
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
How do you judge your tolerance levels? I changed from reading the Express to the Guardian many years ago, does that mean anything?
I try not to be rude to lookie-lookie men, hard though it is at times, and if I find a drunken expat lying in the gutter I try and help him up.
Only as recently as yesterday, I intervened when an elderly skinhead insulted a Spanish waitress. As we were walking away, my wife pointed out the knife sticking out of his back pocket. I should have kept my big mouth shut.
I try not to be rude to lookie-lookie men, hard though it is at times, and if I find a drunken expat lying in the gutter I try and help him up.
Only as recently as yesterday, I intervened when an elderly skinhead insulted a Spanish waitress. As we were walking away, my wife pointed out the knife sticking out of his back pocket. I should have kept my big mouth shut.
Jul 5th 2013 | 12:18 am
#65
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,631
From: Aracena area Huelva Spain
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
Has it changed that drastically ? I still see people in the UK 'mucking in' its just in a more multicultural way. I have about three maybe four friends of the kind you think you could call at any time night and day in an emergency and one of them is a middle aged Bengali woman who I have been mates with for 15 plus years and her Irish husband. I don't see this weird segregated society you see. The costs of translating leaflets is peanuts with all the modern auto translators, I reckon the Spanish just can't be bothered to do it. A sort of general slackness and maybe an unconscious decision making process as well, to try and make things harder for what they still see as Foreigners. It wouldn't hurt to have things in more than one language expats bring a fair amount of money into the Country at the end of the day and one assumes the Spanish want people to comply with their laws and bureaucracy, it would make sense to assist if its a low cost option, would probably bring in more money long term after the initial investment.
Regarding kids being taken to a mosque before a Church, this is actually the parents fault.
It's a pity more so called Christians don't take their own religion seriously enough to bother to take their kids to a Church before they are five. If the parents can't be arised what has it got to do with a school? A school is about Education not about Religion. If the parents obviously can't be bothered to give a kid knowledge of the endemic religion of their own Country then why the heck should a school or society in general bother what way round a couple of school trips are organised. It was probably only logistics that made it fall that way and that the Mosque were more accommodating offering dates up than the Church.
Regarding kids being taken to a mosque before a Church, this is actually the parents fault.
It's a pity more so called Christians don't take their own religion seriously enough to bother to take their kids to a Church before they are five. If the parents can't be arised what has it got to do with a school? A school is about Education not about Religion. If the parents obviously can't be bothered to give a kid knowledge of the endemic religion of their own Country then why the heck should a school or society in general bother what way round a couple of school trips are organised. It was probably only logistics that made it fall that way and that the Mosque were more accommodating offering dates up than the Church.
Yuk!
Jul 5th 2013 | 6:11 pm
#66
BE Positive
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,984
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
If you have pubs called O'Neills and the Dubliners in Madrid, why is it so wrong to have a pub called the Red Lion on the CDS? Come to think about it, I know places called La Tasca or even Mumtaz Indian Restaurant in the UK. I may not think McDs serve top class produce, but they're within their right to open up either in the UK or Spain.
Whats the big problem in a multicultural world of having a 'foreign' resto or pub? If it does business and stays open it means it is catering to the needs of the people. Great. We are in the EU after all.
I am DELIGHTED that Indian restos are everywhere in the UK... I can get a curry almost anywhere. One of my fave food groups. (HAppy also to see e.g Italian, Greek, American etc etc restos/bars in the UK)
Where we live in Spain (Ayamonte - mainly Spanish) there is an area we rarely go to as it has a high percentage of English resto's. Not out of snobbery, just because we prefer to hear/be around a mix of languages (i.e English and Spanish mainly... and French as we speak it.. and others). When England are playing in the Euro's or World Cup or other major sports/sporting events ... nowhere better to go for the atmosphere...! Thank goodness we have a choice to pick and choose... we were there a few weeks ago and had a great evening.
Ive been hit by snobbery on both sides, e.g once when I went into a local bar with just locals, and the Brits in the corner seemed to resent that.... when after saying hello - I returned to my friends.
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
Who cares as long as one has a choice and the freedom to take it. It's the snobbery that annoys me and 'those people' on both sides who believe they have some God-given right to criticise others who have chosen to live differently to them! They are the real prats IMHO!!
If expats want to create 'Little England' in the sun and go just to pubs and eat pie and mash etc, if they are happy - fine. Just don't go there if you don't like it.... and vice versa.
Jon
Last edited by Jon-Bxl; Jul 5th 2013 at 6:15 pm.
Jul 5th 2013 | 6:33 pm
#67
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,824
From: Disneylandia
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
The great thing about Spain (for expat, native-born and visitors) is that whatever you look for, you will find. The experts call it confirmation bias. So if you want to think that Spanish culture is superior to that from other countries, you will find instances that support your view. If you think that all brits in Spain are drunken ignoramuses then you'll see some and think "A ha!"
If you want to believe that the UK is full of unhappy people all on the rat-race then I'm sure you can find that, too.
The point is, all of these things are true - and none of them are. Spain is just another country. In parts wealthier than others with a strong cultural tradition and technological innovation. In other parts a poor, deserted land with high unemployment scraping an agrarian existence. Within those extremes you can find any combination of the good, the bad and the ugly that supports whatever preconceptions you may have.
The same goes for expats. Some are indistinguishable from Spanish-born who have never left the country, others are living "England in the sun" but most are somewhere in between.
ISTM the key to living a satisfied, optimistic live out here is to just get on with it and enjoy the good while avoiding the bad. I realise that not everyone wants to live a satisfied, optimistic live - but those can continue as they are. The thing to remember is that no matter what you think of the other people in your view of the world, ultimately none of them are better or worse individuals than you are - just different.
If you want to believe that the UK is full of unhappy people all on the rat-race then I'm sure you can find that, too.
The point is, all of these things are true - and none of them are. Spain is just another country. In parts wealthier than others with a strong cultural tradition and technological innovation. In other parts a poor, deserted land with high unemployment scraping an agrarian existence. Within those extremes you can find any combination of the good, the bad and the ugly that supports whatever preconceptions you may have.
The same goes for expats. Some are indistinguishable from Spanish-born who have never left the country, others are living "England in the sun" but most are somewhere in between.
ISTM the key to living a satisfied, optimistic live out here is to just get on with it and enjoy the good while avoiding the bad. I realise that not everyone wants to live a satisfied, optimistic live - but those can continue as they are. The thing to remember is that no matter what you think of the other people in your view of the world, ultimately none of them are better or worse individuals than you are - just different.
Brilliant; and all that can apply to Italy too.'luego,
'o nonno
Jul 5th 2013 | 6:48 pm
#68
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,824
From: Disneylandia
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
I've been an expat for 52 years. Yesterday was my turn to cook. So I made fish, chips, and peas. Does that mean I have not integrated properly?ciao for now,
'o nonno
Jul 5th 2013 | 7:09 pm
#70
Banned
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,081
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
I often hear criticism of English pubs in Spain.. but somehow Irish Pubs seem to slip under the radar... they are everywhere all over the world. So are Pizza restaurants, I suspect actually Pizza resto's are the most widespread of them all - anywhere in the world.
Whats the big problem in a multicultural world of having a 'foreign' resto or pub? If it does business and stays open it means it is catering to the needs of the people. Great. We are in the EU after all.
I am DELIGHTED that Indian restos are everywhere in the UK... I can get a curry almost anywhere. One of my fave food groups. (HAppy also to see e.g Italian, Greek, American etc etc restos/bars in the UK)
Where we live in Spain (Ayamonte - mainly Spanish) there is an area we rarely go to as it has a high percentage of English resto's. Not out of snobbery, just because we prefer to hear/be around a mix of languages (i.e English and Spanish mainly... and French as we speak it.. and others). When England are playing in the Euro's or World Cup or other major sports/sporting events ... nowhere better to go for the atmosphere...! Thank goodness we have a choice to pick and choose... we were there a few weeks ago and had a great evening.
Ive been hit by snobbery on both sides, e.g once when I went into a local bar with just locals, and the Brits in the corner seemed to resent that.... when after saying hello - I returned to my friends.
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
Who cares as long as one has a choice and the freedom to take it. It's the snobbery that annoys me and 'those people' on both sides who believe they have some God-given right to criticise others who have chosen to live differently to them! They are the real prats IMHO!!
If expats want to create 'Little England' in the sun and go just to pubs and eat pie and mash etc, if they are happy - fine. Just don't go there if you don't like it.... and vice versa.
Jon
Whats the big problem in a multicultural world of having a 'foreign' resto or pub? If it does business and stays open it means it is catering to the needs of the people. Great. We are in the EU after all.
I am DELIGHTED that Indian restos are everywhere in the UK... I can get a curry almost anywhere. One of my fave food groups. (HAppy also to see e.g Italian, Greek, American etc etc restos/bars in the UK)
Where we live in Spain (Ayamonte - mainly Spanish) there is an area we rarely go to as it has a high percentage of English resto's. Not out of snobbery, just because we prefer to hear/be around a mix of languages (i.e English and Spanish mainly... and French as we speak it.. and others). When England are playing in the Euro's or World Cup or other major sports/sporting events ... nowhere better to go for the atmosphere...! Thank goodness we have a choice to pick and choose... we were there a few weeks ago and had a great evening.
Ive been hit by snobbery on both sides, e.g once when I went into a local bar with just locals, and the Brits in the corner seemed to resent that.... when after saying hello - I returned to my friends.
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
Who cares as long as one has a choice and the freedom to take it. It's the snobbery that annoys me and 'those people' on both sides who believe they have some God-given right to criticise others who have chosen to live differently to them! They are the real prats IMHO!!
If expats want to create 'Little England' in the sun and go just to pubs and eat pie and mash etc, if they are happy - fine. Just don't go there if you don't like it.... and vice versa.
Jon
And usually from other expats and not the locals.
Jul 5th 2013 | 7:22 pm
#71
On the road again.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,507
From: On Top of the World
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
Precisely.
Jul 5th 2013 | 8:02 pm
#72
Moderator
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,149
From: Costa Valencia
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
I often hear criticism of English pubs in Spain.. but somehow Irish Pubs seem to slip under the radar... they are everywhere all over the world. So are Pizza restaurants, I suspect actually Pizza resto's are the most widespread of them all - anywhere in the world.
Whats the big problem in a multicultural world of having a 'foreign' resto or pub? If it does business and stays open it means it is catering to the needs of the people. Great. We are in the EU after all.
I am DELIGHTED that Indian restos are everywhere in the UK... I can get a curry almost anywhere. One of my fave food groups. (HAppy also to see e.g Italian, Greek, American etc etc restos/bars in the UK)
Where we live in Spain (Ayamonte - mainly Spanish) there is an area we rarely go to as it has a high percentage of English resto's. Not out of snobbery, just because we prefer to hear/be around a mix of languages (i.e English and Spanish mainly... and French as we speak it.. and others). When England are playing in the Euro's or World Cup or other major sports/sporting events ... nowhere better to go for the atmosphere...! Thank goodness we have a choice to pick and choose... we were there a few weeks ago and had a great evening.
Ive been hit by snobbery on both sides, e.g once when I went into a local bar with just locals, and the Brits in the corner seemed to resent that.... when after saying hello - I returned to my friends.
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
Who cares as long as one has a choice and the freedom to take it. It's the snobbery that annoys me and 'those people' on both sides who believe they have some God-given right to criticise others who have chosen to live differently to them! They are the real prats IMHO!!
If expats want to create 'Little England' in the sun and go just to pubs and eat pie and mash etc, if they are happy - fine. Just don't go there if you don't like it.... and vice versa.
Jon
Whats the big problem in a multicultural world of having a 'foreign' resto or pub? If it does business and stays open it means it is catering to the needs of the people. Great. We are in the EU after all.
I am DELIGHTED that Indian restos are everywhere in the UK... I can get a curry almost anywhere. One of my fave food groups. (HAppy also to see e.g Italian, Greek, American etc etc restos/bars in the UK)
Where we live in Spain (Ayamonte - mainly Spanish) there is an area we rarely go to as it has a high percentage of English resto's. Not out of snobbery, just because we prefer to hear/be around a mix of languages (i.e English and Spanish mainly... and French as we speak it.. and others). When England are playing in the Euro's or World Cup or other major sports/sporting events ... nowhere better to go for the atmosphere...! Thank goodness we have a choice to pick and choose... we were there a few weeks ago and had a great evening.
Ive been hit by snobbery on both sides, e.g once when I went into a local bar with just locals, and the Brits in the corner seemed to resent that.... when after saying hello - I returned to my friends.
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
Who cares as long as one has a choice and the freedom to take it. It's the snobbery that annoys me and 'those people' on both sides who believe they have some God-given right to criticise others who have chosen to live differently to them! They are the real prats IMHO!!
If expats want to create 'Little England' in the sun and go just to pubs and eat pie and mash etc, if they are happy - fine. Just don't go there if you don't like it.... and vice versa.
Jon
Rosemary
Jul 5th 2013 | 9:02 pm
#75
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 614
Re: Do you, like me get peed off
I often hear criticism of English pubs in Spain.. but somehow Irish Pubs seem to slip under the radar... they are everywhere all over the world.
...
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
...
Conversely I've met Brits who look down at their noses at people that haven't fully integrated, speak the language and haven't become 'quasi-local'.
), the idea we should all belong to some "class" or other, post-colonial guilt or merely The Daily Mail, I can't say. But it does seem to place us far away from nationals of most other countries - who are proud of where they were born and will talk it up, defend it (argumentatively, not militarily), let those around them know of its successes - and promote it when the opportunity presents itself.I don't know whether it's England that brits "hate" (though hate is a too-strong term for it) or just other brits who don't fit into their "class". My current theory is that these "haters" see the brits around them as being a mirror of themselves and this doesn't fit in with their own self-image. It's the realisation that they are, essentially, the same as the individuals they scorn - if only acting a little differently - which is what bugs them.
Last edited by pete_l; Jul 5th 2013 at 9:21 pm.
