Demolition is proving difficult
Oct 5th 2013, 11:56 am
#61
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,171
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
I sold my villa recently.
I was put in touch with the buyer after the event and discovered that he had actually paid €10k more than I had been told it had been sold for and that the estate agent had tried to sell the car (which was included in the price) as a separate deal. Originally I had been told that he had offered €20k under the asking price, whereas he had always offered the asking price.
It's not my problem now, as I am out of Spain, but I feel sorry for the buyer who paid €10k in cash at the time of completion. Luckily, I hadn't paid the estate agent his massive fee, so draw your own conclusions.
Buying or selling a property in Spain can be a nightmare. One of the most important pieces of advice I can give is speak directly to the buyer / seller all the time. Then you know exactly what the score is, and each of you would be fully aware of any scams. Trust no one, don't use a solicitor recommended by the seller / estate agent (as my buyer did!) and NEVER get involved in cash payments in the corridor! Do your own checks with the town hall and maybe even use a gestor to do some independent checking for you
I was put in touch with the buyer after the event and discovered that he had actually paid €10k more than I had been told it had been sold for and that the estate agent had tried to sell the car (which was included in the price) as a separate deal. Originally I had been told that he had offered €20k under the asking price, whereas he had always offered the asking price.
It's not my problem now, as I am out of Spain, but I feel sorry for the buyer who paid €10k in cash at the time of completion. Luckily, I hadn't paid the estate agent his massive fee, so draw your own conclusions.
Buying or selling a property in Spain can be a nightmare. One of the most important pieces of advice I can give is speak directly to the buyer / seller all the time. Then you know exactly what the score is, and each of you would be fully aware of any scams. Trust no one, don't use a solicitor recommended by the seller / estate agent (as my buyer did!) and NEVER get involved in cash payments in the corridor! Do your own checks with the town hall and maybe even use a gestor to do some independent checking for you
So its still going on
, out of interest was the agent an expat?
Oct 5th 2013, 12:16 pm
#62
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Mallorca
Posts: 19,367
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
The CIA caused it. (otherwise where would they get all that information?)
Oct 5th 2013, 12:25 pm
#63
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
So you think if we bought an illegal property here in Spain it is because we lost our brains.
Our biggest mistake was to trust those we should have been able to trust e.g. lawyers, estate agents, bank mangers and their surveyors.
No I wouldn´t expect to buy an illegal property in the U.K. as I would have done exactly what I did in Spain trust the lawyer etc. etc.
Buyers who buy in good faith are not the problem here it is the corrupt people that we dealt with, they are the problem not us.
Our house will eventually be demolished as it is built on protected land (ley de costas) we relied on the lawyer to make sure everything was above board just as we would have done in the U.K.
We bought two houses during our time in the U.K. it never ocurred to us that they would be illegal as we had lawyers dealing with all the paperwork just as we did here in Spain.
Our mistake was that we trusted the professionals who we should have been able to trust to their job correctly.
Our biggest mistake was to trust those we should have been able to trust e.g. lawyers, estate agents, bank mangers and their surveyors.
No I wouldn´t expect to buy an illegal property in the U.K. as I would have done exactly what I did in Spain trust the lawyer etc. etc.
Buyers who buy in good faith are not the problem here it is the corrupt people that we dealt with, they are the problem not us.
Our house will eventually be demolished as it is built on protected land (ley de costas) we relied on the lawyer to make sure everything was above board just as we would have done in the U.K.
We bought two houses during our time in the U.K. it never ocurred to us that they would be illegal as we had lawyers dealing with all the paperwork just as we did here in Spain.
Our mistake was that we trusted the professionals who we should have been able to trust to their job correctly.
Denuncia ?? (perhaps not anything like a sledgehammer thru the window of the office - but if you checked for denuncia's against a "professional" before using them it would come up and you wouldn't use them.
Legal action ?? (OK so it will take decades for that to go through, but they still have a duty of care and a professional body that seems to cover things up.)
Probably the Notary is the one who should take the most blame - they are supposed to ensure it is all kosher and all the paperwork is correct and in place.
When we made an offer on an (illegal) house earlier this year we paid the deposit to our Spanish solicitor who is in the UK, when we found it was illegal we didn't even lose that money or have a fight with the (all English) Estate Agent to get it back.
`
Oct 5th 2013, 12:29 pm
#64
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Hi
Well actually, Yes it was. And that is the crux of the problem. The council published a PGOU and before you could say "Jack Robinson", there were illegal houses built on every piece of land that was zoned for housing.
The houses were built without permission because the fines for doing so were less than the cost of getting permission - and it would take too long to do so.
To demolish the 300,000 illegal houses in Andalucía would be unthinkable. Spain would loose all credence simply thinking it. And the EU wouldn't let it happen.
The solution will be a long time coming - but there will be a solution.
Davexf
Well actually, Yes it was. And that is the crux of the problem. The council published a PGOU and before you could say "Jack Robinson", there were illegal houses built on every piece of land that was zoned for housing.
The houses were built without permission because the fines for doing so were less than the cost of getting permission - and it would take too long to do so.
To demolish the 300,000 illegal houses in Andalucía would be unthinkable. Spain would loose all credence simply thinking it. And the EU wouldn't let it happen.
The solution will be a long time coming - but there will be a solution.
Davexf
Still can't work out how it is possible to get a Cert of Habitation on an illegal house - but then the manufacturers of little brown envelopes are still doing well.
Oct 5th 2013, 2:33 pm
#65
Senior Moment
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: On the edge
Posts: 20,460
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Two expats and a Spaniard. I get the impression that the Spaniard was the main man pulling the strings, certainly the stuff they stole and the car ended up with him as far as I know.
Oct 5th 2013, 4:00 pm
#66
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 614
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Let the existing owners stay in them with any existing mortgages, fees and taxes still to be paid, but they must be maintained, can't be rented out or sold (as if!). On death, default, if the owners are unable / unwilling or if they wish to just give them up, they revert to the state.
Oct 5th 2013, 6:02 pm
#67
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: Beckenham, London borough Bromley
Posts: 1,617
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Maybe the answer is to "nationalise" them.
Let the existing owners stay in them with any existing mortgages, fees and taxes still to be paid, but they must be maintained, can't be rented out or sold (as if!). On death, default, if the owners are unable / unwilling or if they wish to just give them up, they revert to the state.
Let the existing owners stay in them with any existing mortgages, fees and taxes still to be paid, but they must be maintained, can't be rented out or sold (as if!). On death, default, if the owners are unable / unwilling or if they wish to just give them up, they revert to the state.
No you miss the point; if they are allowed to stand, then let the owners legalise them. I repeat, I can't see the Junta allowing total demolition - there would be civil war. Therefore if they exist, then they should be allowed to enter a Western World state of legality
Davexf
Oct 5th 2013, 6:14 pm
#68
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Velez-Malaga
Posts: 4,939
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Maybe the answer is to "nationalise" them.
Let the existing owners stay in them with any existing mortgages, fees and taxes still to be paid, but they must be maintained, can't be rented out or sold (as if!). On death, default, if the owners are unable / unwilling or if they wish to just give them up, they revert to the state.
Let the existing owners stay in them with any existing mortgages, fees and taxes still to be paid, but they must be maintained, can't be rented out or sold (as if!). On death, default, if the owners are unable / unwilling or if they wish to just give them up, they revert to the state.
Oct 5th 2013, 6:15 pm
#69
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 614
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Lynn R: Nothing gets appropriated as the current occupiers can stay in them - just not make any money from them. It's better than destroying them and "society" gets the benefit, since "society" took the hit of having to put up with illegal builds. Maybe instead of people looking for work, the work could come looking for the people? Company towns were a feature of the 19th century. Maybe a multinational could build a factory (legally
) and buy up the nearby houses and rent them to employees at subsidised rates?
Last edited by pete_l; Oct 5th 2013 at 6:23 pm.
Oct 5th 2013, 6:31 pm
#70
Banned
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,081
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Yes, sure. But owned by the state. That way the current occupiers don't get thrown onto the streets. The buildings are kept in good repair or vacated. Their presence (as state owned) is legal and once the current occupiers have finished with them, they can be used as cheap/social housing or possibly sold off (as the UKs council houses were, under Maggie) and the money used to lower taxes.
Lynn R: Nothing gets appropriated as the current occupiers can stay in them - just not make any money from them. It's better than destroying them and "society" gets the benefit, since "society" took the hit of having to put up with illegal builds. Maybe instead of people looking for work, the work could come looking for the people? Company towns were a feature of the 19th century. Maybe a multinational could build a factory (legally) and buy up the nearby houses and rent them to employees at subsidised rates?
Lynn R: Nothing gets appropriated as the current occupiers can stay in them - just not make any money from them. It's better than destroying them and "society" gets the benefit, since "society" took the hit of having to put up with illegal builds. Maybe instead of people looking for work, the work could come looking for the people? Company towns were a feature of the 19th century. Maybe a multinational could build a factory (legally
) and buy up the nearby houses and rent them to employees at subsidised rates?So what you are saying that the houses should be taken over by the state, and the state being so generous will allow the owners to live there, but not be able to sell their homes or "make money from them".
Very noble, I´m sure.
Then the houses used as social houses, or sold and the money made could lower taxes.
You may think your suggestion is a good one, but it is one of the worst I have heard.
Why should a duped buyers assets be used to lower taxes? I am sure if your home was illegal you would not have come up with such a bright
idea.
Oct 5th 2013, 6:49 pm
#71
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: Velez-Malaga
Posts: 4,939
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
Yes, sure. But owned by the state. That way the current occupiers don't get thrown onto the streets. The buildings are kept in good repair or vacated. Their presence (as state owned) is legal and once the current occupiers have finished with them, they can be used as cheap/social housing or possibly sold off (as the UKs council houses were, under Maggie) and the money used to lower taxes.
Lynn R: Nothing gets appropriated as the current occupiers can stay in them - just not make any money from them. It's better than destroying them and "society" gets the benefit, since "society" took the hit of having to put up with illegal builds. Maybe instead of people looking for work, the work could come looking for the people? Company towns were a feature of the 19th century. Maybe a multinational could build a factory (legally) and buy up the nearby houses and rent them to employees at subsidised rates?
Lynn R: Nothing gets appropriated as the current occupiers can stay in them - just not make any money from them. It's better than destroying them and "society" gets the benefit, since "society" took the hit of having to put up with illegal builds. Maybe instead of people looking for work, the work could come looking for the people? Company towns were a feature of the 19th century. Maybe a multinational could build a factory (legally
) and buy up the nearby houses and rent them to employees at subsidised rates?had taken place, the fact is that they would under your scheme be prevented from deriving any income from it, from selling it to get their money back, or from passing it on to their heirs. Instead, it would pass to the Government who could then sell it to lower taxes (as if!), the property having by some arcane process become legal enough to sell although the Government refused to legalise it before it took possession?
If the areas where the majority of these properties are located (like inland Axarquia not far from where I live) is deemed unsuitable for housing because it is rural land, why would anybody (most of all environmentalists) want industry to locate there? What kind of industry could it possibly be anyway, far from large conurbations or good road links to transport their goods? Thinking of what some of the "company towns" of the 19th century were like, I hardly think that would be an improvement on the present situation!
Oct 5th 2013, 7:15 pm
#72
Joined: Jun 2011
Location: In the middle of 10million Olive Trees
Posts: 12,053
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
I'm afraid I would see that as appropriation if I were in that very unfortunate position. A house is, for most people, by far their most expensive asset. If someone has, despite having followed all legal procedures and availed themself of professional legal services, bought a property that was declared illegal after the purchase
had taken place, the fact is that they would under your scheme be prevented from deriving any income from it, from selling it to get their money back, or from passing it on to their heirs. Instead, it would pass to the Government who could then sell it to lower taxes (as if!), the property having by some arcane process become legal enough to sell although the Government refused to legalise it before it took possession?
If the areas where the majority of these properties are located (like inland Axarquia not far from where I live) is deemed unsuitable for housing because it is rural land, why would anybody (most of all environmentalists) want industry to locate there? What kind of industry could it possibly be anyway, far from large conurbations or good road links to transport their goods?
Thinking of what some of the "company towns" of the 19th century were like, I hardly think that would be an improvement on the present situation!
had taken place, the fact is that they would under your scheme be prevented from deriving any income from it, from selling it to get their money back, or from passing it on to their heirs. Instead, it would pass to the Government who could then sell it to lower taxes (as if!), the property having by some arcane process become legal enough to sell although the Government refused to legalise it before it took possession?
If the areas where the majority of these properties are located (like inland Axarquia not far from where I live) is deemed unsuitable for housing because it is rural land, why would anybody (most of all environmentalists) want industry to locate there? What kind of industry could it possibly be anyway, far from large conurbations or good road links to transport their goods?
Thinking of what some of the "company towns" of the 19th century were like, I hardly think that would be an improvement on the present situation!
its hell on wheels now for those who live and work there, delivery vehicles to bars etc
Remember Dormanstown, large company township, back in the 60's and 70's it was turning into a slum like Coronation street and got worse when the steel works and others started the slow process of shutting down.
Some people have "taken" prominent positions over looking the bays of the CDS etc, but it has proven to be a poison chalice as there would normally be huge protests from the Environmental as well as Planning people. But the attitude is "possession is 9 tenths of the law".
Just the 1 tenth has more sway than their 9.
Oct 7th 2013, 7:48 am
#73
Banned
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 805
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
[QUOTE=agoreira;10925318]I suspect the lack of interest in your thread is that most of the members hate to admit there is anything wrong with Spain, that there is corruption on a unprecedented scale, that all the Brits caught up in these massive scandals left their brains on the aircraft and it's purely down to them for the sad state they find themselves in.
Forget the hundreds of thousands of illegal builds in Spain, if you could find a case of an illegal house in UK and posted that, you'd be swamped with replies! I posted an almost identical article recently, I wish you luck, you have my sympathy, I can imagine what you must be going through. http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...30_335439.html[/QUO TE]
How true, there are no bent mayors, taxation of ex-pats is totally fair, everyone carries a fluorescent vest for every seat in the car, a full set of replacement light bulbs and a spare pair of glasses (if applicable), along with their original passport, driving license and insurance schedule, that they leave in their car when only wearing t shirt and shorts. They believe that the UK is in total melt down, only awaiting aid befitting a third world country, all Brits envy ex-pats in Spain who are living the high life.
It is almost impossible to build an illegal house in the UK, due to laws/rules and regulations that appear draconian when you are involved with them, but would welcome the same in Spain with open arms. I recall asking for information as to what a buyer actually owned having purchased in an apart-hotel development, I never received a satisfactory answer, perhaps that is one reason why you can pick one up for circa €180,000 as against the original asking price of €399,000.
A lot of UK ex-pats in Spain are in denial, which is not a long river in Africa. They are locked in to properties that they will never be able to sell due to vast over supply. We were totally focused into joining them, that is until we came to our senses. We both love Spain and have travelled extensively within it and it's territories, neither of us fancy getting into residency problems, and in the unlikely event of us buying a property, we would place it within a UK Ltd company.
Cheers guys.
Forget the hundreds of thousands of illegal builds in Spain, if you could find a case of an illegal house in UK and posted that, you'd be swamped with replies!
I posted an almost identical article recently, I wish you luck, you have my sympathy, I can imagine what you must be going through. http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...30_335439.html[/QUO TE]How true, there are no bent mayors, taxation of ex-pats is totally fair, everyone carries a fluorescent vest for every seat in the car, a full set of replacement light bulbs and a spare pair of glasses (if applicable), along with their original passport, driving license and insurance schedule, that they leave in their car when only wearing t shirt and shorts. They believe that the UK is in total melt down, only awaiting aid befitting a third world country, all Brits envy ex-pats in Spain who are living the high life.
It is almost impossible to build an illegal house in the UK, due to laws/rules and regulations that appear draconian when you are involved with them, but would welcome the same in Spain with open arms. I recall asking for information as to what a buyer actually owned having purchased in an apart-hotel development, I never received a satisfactory answer, perhaps that is one reason why you can pick one up for circa €180,000 as against the original asking price of €399,000.
A lot of UK ex-pats in Spain are in denial, which is not a long river in Africa. They are locked in to properties that they will never be able to sell due to vast over supply. We were totally focused into joining them, that is until we came to our senses. We both love Spain and have travelled extensively within it and it's territories, neither of us fancy getting into residency problems, and in the unlikely event of us buying a property, we would place it within a UK Ltd company.
Cheers guys.
Oct 7th 2013, 1:03 pm
#74
MODERATOR
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Costa Valencia
Posts: 14,802
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
[QUOTE=crookesey;10933599]
As Concierge for the Spanish section of BE I would like to say hello and welcome.
BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.
Please let me know if you need any further help.
Rosemary
I suspect the lack of interest in your thread is that most of the members hate to admit there is anything wrong with Spain, that there is corruption on a unprecedented scale, that all the Brits caught up in these massive scandals left their brains on the aircraft and it's purely down to them for the sad state they find themselves in.
Forget the hundreds of thousands of illegal builds in Spain, if you could find a case of an illegal house in UK and posted that, you'd be swamped with replies! I posted an almost identical article recently, I wish you luck, you have my sympathy, I can imagine what you must be going through. http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...30_335439.html[/QUO TE]
How true, there are no bent mayors, taxation of ex-pats is totally fair, everyone carries a fluorescent vest for every seat in the car, a full set of replacement light bulbs and a spare pair of glasses (if applicable), along with their original passport, driving license and insurance schedule, that they leave in their car when only wearing t shirt and shorts. They believe that the UK is in total melt down, only awaiting aid befitting a third world country, all Brits envy ex-pats in Spain who are living the high life.
It is almost impossible to build an illegal house in the UK, due to laws/rules and regulations that appear draconian when you are involved with them, but would welcome the same in Spain with open arms. I recall asking for information as to what a buyer actually owned having purchased in an apart-hotel development, I never received a satisfactory answer, perhaps that is one reason why you can pick one up for circa €180,000 as against the original asking price of €399,000.
A lot of UK ex-pats in Spain are in denial, which is not a long river in Africa. They are locked in to properties that they will never be able to sell due to vast over supply. We were totally focused into joining them, that is until we came to our senses. We both love Spain and have travelled extensively within it and it's territories, neither of us fancy getting into residency problems, and in the unlikely event of us buying a property, we would place it within a UK Ltd company.
Cheers guys.
Forget the hundreds of thousands of illegal builds in Spain, if you could find a case of an illegal house in UK and posted that, you'd be swamped with replies!
I posted an almost identical article recently, I wish you luck, you have my sympathy, I can imagine what you must be going through. http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/...30_335439.html[/QUO TE]How true, there are no bent mayors, taxation of ex-pats is totally fair, everyone carries a fluorescent vest for every seat in the car, a full set of replacement light bulbs and a spare pair of glasses (if applicable), along with their original passport, driving license and insurance schedule, that they leave in their car when only wearing t shirt and shorts. They believe that the UK is in total melt down, only awaiting aid befitting a third world country, all Brits envy ex-pats in Spain who are living the high life.
It is almost impossible to build an illegal house in the UK, due to laws/rules and regulations that appear draconian when you are involved with them, but would welcome the same in Spain with open arms. I recall asking for information as to what a buyer actually owned having purchased in an apart-hotel development, I never received a satisfactory answer, perhaps that is one reason why you can pick one up for circa €180,000 as against the original asking price of €399,000.
A lot of UK ex-pats in Spain are in denial, which is not a long river in Africa. They are locked in to properties that they will never be able to sell due to vast over supply. We were totally focused into joining them, that is until we came to our senses. We both love Spain and have travelled extensively within it and it's territories, neither of us fancy getting into residency problems, and in the unlikely event of us buying a property, we would place it within a UK Ltd company.
Cheers guys.
BE is a very large expat website, so if you have problems finding your way around we have concierges who will try to direct you. The moderators for the Spanish forums are Mitzyboy and Fred James, moderators are there to ensure that the site runs smoothly within the rules of BE. Problems and complaints should always be addressed to a moderador who will look into the matter and deal with it efficiently and fairly. Our members who post in the Spain Forums are friendly and helpful with a wealth of knowledge of the issues of living in Spain. At the top of the page you will find a quirkily named thread called Free Beer which is full of important and useful information. Hope you enjoy your time participating in the forums.
Please let me know if you need any further help.
Rosemary
Oct 7th 2013, 1:34 pm
#75
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 977
Re: Demolition is proving difficult
I too absolutely agree and of course in the UK the SRA is so active and in current times I have to say that some Solicitors who themselves have to pay overheads are taking chances. It is not worth it you will get found out.
But that is the UK this is Spain
In France the Notaire who is a Government employee does not act for either the purchaser or the vendor. So a lot of caveat emptor exists and UK purchaser go to lawyers in the UK who are governed by their professional body for advice. The Notaire is simply a tax collector. But the system is sound.
But that is the UK this is Spain
In France the Notaire who is a Government employee does not act for either the purchaser or the vendor. So a lot of caveat emptor exists and UK purchaser go to lawyers in the UK who are governed by their professional body for advice. The Notaire is simply a tax collector. But the system is sound.