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Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Old Feb 13th 2010, 4:03 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by John & Kath
That is a main plank of SL´s argument with the Mayor he has not correctly registered the EUC and indeed it may not be possible to do so since the URB CE has not been correctly received by the Ayuntamiento.
I'm glad you understand it. If you understand my English, you can understand any...

That's a plank. The other is: if there isn´t final acceptance certificate, under the Law, it can not demand EUC´s members the maintenance payments for something that has not been received by the Town Hall.

Last edited by spanish_lawyer; Feb 13th 2010 at 4:08 pm.
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Old Feb 13th 2010, 4:43 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by spanish_lawyer
Hello Yes We Can,

Here are two views.

My opinion: no, it should be possible now. Why?. Because the time for appeal ended a month after the date ending the pay period. So, you'd be out of time.

Board's version: they extended the payment deadline until next February 20th, though this extension was not notified. So, you'd be on time.

As the Board will not refuse to extend the deadline (that would deny to itself), take advantage of his decision and appeals, if you consider it appropriate.

My advice, if you appeal, you will do it in the next week.




I say you the appeal´s resolution: it will not be admitted,(it is the standard response of the Town Hall), but with that answer you can go to Courts.
I advise you to pay or to appeal.

If you need help, I am at your disposal.
Hi SL

Thanks for your opinion. I have done the legal appeal on time ,the information is for some friends who want to appeal.

Un saludo.
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Old Feb 13th 2010, 8:31 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by spanish_lawyer
I'm glad you understand it. If you understand my English, you can understand any...

That's a plank. The other is: if there isn´t final acceptance certificate, under the Law, it can not demand EUC´s members the maintenance payments for something that has not been received by the Town Hall.
Thank you SL for your reply to my questions. It appears the Court must make a final decision.
Carol
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Old Feb 14th 2010, 11:53 am
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Smile Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by spanish_lawyer
Hello Yes We Can,

Here are two views.

My opinion: no, it should be possible now. Why?. Because the time for appeal ended a month after the date ending the pay period. So, you'd be out of time.

Board's version: they extended the payment deadline until next February 20th, though this extension was not notified. So, you'd be on time.

As the Board will not refuse to extend the deadline (that would deny to itself), take advantage of his decision and appeals, if you consider it appropriate.

My advice, if you appeal, you will do it in the next week.

I say you the appeal´s resolution: it will not be admitted,(it is the standard response of the Town Hall), but with that answer you can go to Courts.
I advise you to pay or to appeal.

If you need help, I am at your disposal.
Hola SL,

I downloaded and stored your appeal notification for those who had not made any payment. I had already paid my EUC demand but you later said that it was still possible to appeal after paying. It is not just the fee but the principal that you should not pay to something that is not legally constituted.

So how do I appeal? I want to make the Mayor very aware that "we" are very dissatified with the way he has done things and perhaps his way is not the best way. Perhaps a Residents Association would be a better way until MF have done what they are supposed to or the Bank Guarantee has been called and the work done by the Ayuntamiento.

So how do I do it?
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Old Feb 14th 2010, 12:33 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

[QUOTE=John & Kath;8340623]Hola SL,

I downloaded and stored your appeal notification for those who had not made any payment. I had already paid my EUC demand but you later said that it was still possible to appeal after paying. It is not just the fee but the principal that you should not pay to something that is not legally constituted.

So how do I appeal? I want to make the Mayor very aware that "we" are very dissatified with the way he has done things and perhaps his way is not the best way. Perhaps a Residents Association would be a better way until MF have done what they are supposed to or the Bank Guarantee has been called and the work done by the Ayuntamiento.

So how do I do it?[/QUOTE

Hi John & Kath

Completely agree with you when you say " it is not just the fee but the principal that you should not pay to something that is not legally constitued".
Aso agree with the Residents Association, I will be the first to join it.
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 7:50 am
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by John & Kath
Hola SL,

I downloaded and stored your appeal notification for those who had not made any payment. I had already paid my EUC demand but you later said that it was still possible to appeal after paying. It is not just the fee but the principal that you should not pay to something that is not legally constituted.

So how do I appeal? I want to make the Mayor very aware that "we" are very dissatified with the way he has done things and perhaps his way is not the best way. Perhaps a Residents Association would be a better way until MF have done what they are supposed to or the Bank Guarantee has been called and the work done by the Ayuntamiento.

So how do I do it?
I think there are 3 tracks that we need to go on - they are connected, but separate. They should be treated separately too.

Firstly as many know, I am very concerned about the EUC, the board and the way they control. I have no proof but I have some strong suspicions about the way they do things. I also dont see the business model working. Finally I am totally against them having expenses and entertainment. They say that they use up their personal time and as lawyers are used to charging for this. But all the Intercommunity and community presidents + VP's do it for free and for the benefit of their 'constituents'. Why should the EUC be an exception?

With that in mind we have:-

TRACK 1 - Appeals process.
I think this is inevitable and I understand why people are appealing. However we need to think about what happens if these are succesful. The EUC breaks down, and we need an alternative. My suggestion is that we start a RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION asap so that we can challenge the 'broken' EUC today (whether or not the appeals work) and also we have an organisation already in place if the appeals DO work. Note that these associations are legally binding in law - and have 'teeth'.
Problem: How can we get enough people involved? Also you know that the Mayor will be pi**ed off and Fadesa would not support it as they have so much power. I believe that the board are counting on the fact that we cant organise a sufficient quorum to challenge them and thus they do what they want. Until we can find a way - they are right.
TRACK 2 - Bank guarantee: July is not so far away = and we need that money. It has nothing to do with the EUC and I dont understand why the Mayor vetoed it, also why he had the power to veto. Was the guarantee made by Fadesa solely to the town hall? It became a political issue and the Mayor, who is supposed to be pro-CE (as prez of EUC) - just killed it. Until he explains why he did this, people may well believe that the Mayor and board members are all part of a 'private club' - with private deals and interests protected by the 'cabal' of board members.

We need to find out of there is another way to secure these guarantees: For example can the communities/intercommunities call on these guarantees? I think its important that we find out if there is a way that we as residents get what was promised - and paid for via an 'insurance' with the banks, i.e the bank guarantees. We are already showing the mayor that we are not suporting his stance, so going around him is not a problem. Once we set up a processs for July, we can go after the other amounts. Note that it seems like a lot of money. It IS for us - but not for the banks, they are committed via the guarantee and its a drop in the ocean compared to the bonuses!

Problem: How can we find out what the terms of the guarantee are AND get enough people INVOLVED to push for it - if necessary via the Mayor - or around him? If we do nothing we will get nothing! But, we must set an objective and enough people wanting it - to make it happen. We shouldnt let this drop whilst waiting for the appeals - they are not connected.


TRACK 3 - MF payments to EUC:. Its a week before the deadline, if they dont pay - then we need an extraordinary meeting to get rid of them - it is not acceptable that they stay on the board. However they have a lot of power and to get this to happen will need a concerted effort. Ironically however, if the appeals are effective, they can ask for their money back!!

Problem: [I]How can we get enough people to push for it in the event of a non-payment.


I keep coming back to the fact that there needs to be a strong level of support and a sufficiently large group of people willing to fight for change. I worry that there isnt this energy there - and once again the EUC board can continue doing what they want until we can get involvement. If we cant get the right numbers of people involved, its a lost cause, and best to hang up the hat!

Regards
Jon
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 12:06 pm
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Smile Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Hola SL, I have been re-reading “You and the Law in Spain” pages 357 thro 364. Article 26 of the law requires that a properly constituted EUC has to be registered with the Provincial Urban Commission on the Register. If the CE EUC is not properly registered then they cannot make charges!
Article 27 insists that all name changes (to the Board) must also be registered in the above registry.

PS. We were at Jags for Valentines last night and it was brilliant if he can do half as well as this at the new club then it must succeed and be a great asset to CE.

PPS.Great post Jon and I support it wholeheartedly
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 1:09 pm
  #428  
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by Jon-Bxl
I think there are 3 tracks that we need to go on - they are connected, but separate. They should be treated separately too.

Firstly as many know, I am very concerned about the EUC, the board and the way they control. I have no proof but I have some strong suspicions about the way they do things. I also dont see the business model working. Finally I am totally against them having expenses and entertainment. They say that they use up their personal time and as lawyers are used to charging for this. But all the Intercommunity and community presidents + VP's do it for free and for the benefit of their 'constituents'. Why should the EUC be an exception?

With that in mind we have:-

TRACK 1 - Appeals process.
I think this is inevitable and I understand why people are appealing. However we need to think about what happens if these are succesful. The EUC breaks down, and we need an alternative. My suggestion is that we start a RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION asap so that we can challenge the 'broken' EUC today (whether or not the appeals work) and also we have an organisation already in place if the appeals DO work. Note that these associations are legally binding in law - and have 'teeth'.
Problem: How can we get enough people involved? Also you know that the Mayor will be pi**ed off and Fadesa would not support it as they have so much power. I believe that the board are counting on the fact that we cant organise a sufficient quorum to challenge them and thus they do what they want. Until we can find a way - they are right.
TRACK 2 - Bank guarantee: July is not so far away = and we need that money. It has nothing to do with the EUC and I dont understand why the Mayor vetoed it, also why he had the power to veto. Was the guarantee made by Fadesa solely to the town hall? It became a political issue and the Mayor, who is supposed to be pro-CE (as prez of EUC) - just killed it. Until he explains why he did this, people may well believe that the Mayor and board members are all part of a 'private club' - with private deals and interests protected by the 'cabal' of board members.

We need to find out of there is another way to secure these guarantees: For example can the communities/intercommunities call on these guarantees? I think its important that we find out if there is a way that we as residents get what was promised - and paid for via an 'insurance' with the banks, i.e the bank guarantees. We are already showing the mayor that we are not suporting his stance, so going around him is not a problem. Once we set up a processs for July, we can go after the other amounts. Note that it seems like a lot of money. It IS for us - but not for the banks, they are committed via the guarantee and its a drop in the ocean compared to the bonuses!

Problem: How can we find out what the terms of the guarantee are AND get enough people INVOLVED to push for it - if necessary via the Mayor - or around him? If we do nothing we will get nothing! But, we must set an objective and enough people wanting it - to make it happen. We shouldnt let this drop whilst waiting for the appeals - they are not connected.


TRACK 3 - MF payments to EUC:. Its a week before the deadline, if they dont pay - then we need an extraordinary meeting to get rid of them - it is not acceptable that they stay on the board. However they have a lot of power and to get this to happen will need a concerted effort. Ironically however, if the appeals are effective, they can ask for their money back!!

Problem: [I]How can we get enough people to push for it in the event of a non-payment.


I keep coming back to the fact that there needs to be a strong level of support and a sufficiently large group of people willing to fight for change. I worry that there isnt this energy there - and once again the EUC board can continue doing what they want until we can get involvement. If we cant get the right numbers of people involved, its a lost cause, and best to hang up the hat!

Regards
Jon
EXCELLENT post John, thanks for thinking this out. We do need something and if only the EUC had got it right we would have been supportive (we have in that we have paid!) but if they do not play fair then we will have to have an alternative. CE is FABULOUS, we love our home there and we need the whole of CE to be looking good and not have the gardens, road etc in between the inter-communities to never ever start to look uncared for. However we need people to step forward, leaders, organisers....such a shame it could be the EUC board and L & G IF ONLY they had got it right. Is there still chance for them to do so ? It would make life easier.

Good for Jag, we're signing up and looking forward to spending some of our time at the CE new resto, we support the little shop and want to do the same for Jag...these are all POSITIVES for CE.

All the best

Mel
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 1:09 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by John & Kath
Hola SL, I have been re-reading “You and the Law in Spain” pages 357 thro 364. Article 26 of the law requires that a properly constituted EUC has to be registered with the Provincial Urban Commission on the Register. If the CE EUC is not properly registered then they cannot make charges!
Article 27 insists that all name changes (to the Board) must also be registered in the above registry.
I think SL says (in Post #419) that the EUC is registered - and is (one would have thought) therefore de-facto legally consituted. It looks as if the original meeting in Dec2008 was called as a General Assembly - despite the fact that very little notice was given or circulated - and at that meeting they nominated (and maybe even elected) the EUC Board. Even though the representation of the CE consituency was not complete then it looks as if the letter of the law may well have been followed and the EUC Board are the legal representatives (as I've said before legal but not legitimate).
IMHO there are two (or three) ways forward:
1. Challenge in the courts the legality of the original set-up of the EUC (go for it SL!) on the basis that MF had not substantively completed the works and therefore the Town Hall acted illegally in allowing the EUC to be set up. - I guess that it depends on the exact wording of the Spanish law and local regulations as to the degree of substantive completion would be acceptable. I wouldn't even know where to start on that one and it could take years so I would bow to SL's better judgement
2. Through the democratic process - get the representation on the EUC more in line with the residents wishes. Our only representation is through the plot owners and Community/inter-community presidents (and our President resigned because he was outvoted on the legal challenge issue ). One factor which could swing things our way is if MF are disbarred through non-payment then the quorom may not be reached and new elections might have to be called.
3. Do nothing - have faith in the integrity of the Mayor - after all he will want to be re-elected next year and will not do anything manifestly illegal - and hope that everything will turn out right in the end. Maybe the intense lobbying that went on at the last meeting may actually sway things in the right direction. (but beware porcine aviators)
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 3:16 pm
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Smile Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by MikeJ
I think SL says (in Post #419) that the EUC is registered - and is (one would have thought) therefore de-facto legally consituted. It looks as if the original meeting in Dec2008 was called as a General Assembly - despite the fact that very little notice was given or circulated - and at that meeting they nominated (and maybe even elected) the EUC Board. Even though the representation of the CE consituency was not complete then it looks as if the letter of the law may well have been followed and the EUC Board are the legal representatives (as I've said before legal but not legitimate).
IMHO there are two (or three) ways forward:
1. Challenge in the courts the legality of the original set-up of the EUC (go for it SL!) on the basis that MF had not substantively completed the works and therefore the Town Hall acted illegally in allowing the EUC to be set up. - I guess that it depends on the exact wording of the Spanish law and local regulations as to the degree of substantive completion would be acceptable. I wouldn't even know where to start on that one and it could take years so I would bow to SL's better judgement
2. Through the democratic process - get the representation on the EUC more in line with the residents wishes. Our only representation is through the plot owners and Community/inter-community presidents (and our President resigned because he was outvoted on the legal challenge issue ). One factor which could swing things our way is if MF are disbarred through non-payment then the quorom may not be reached and new elections might have to be called.
3. Do nothing - have faith in the integrity of the Mayor - after all he will want to be re-elected next year and will not do anything manifestly illegal - and hope that everything will turn out right in the end. Maybe the intense lobbying that went on at the last meeting may actually sway things in the right direction. (but beware porcine aviators)
No #419 confirms her view that the EUC has not been properly registered. We will have wait and see which view prevails but of the two I think I would back SL against the Mayor it is her specialist area of the law and any way she is much better looking than him!
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Jon
I have been following your conversations with interest and thought you may be interested in the Costa Esuri Owners Group which has been set up. The general consensus seems to be that more voices are better than one.
Here is our opportunity to join together for property owners to speak with strength on the important issues which affect us all.

Arthur
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 5:16 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

On the topic of local elections - a thought occurs
If everybody who owns property signs up to the Empadronemiente and the Electoral Register then it would represent a fairly significant block vote - which might encourage the Mayor to be more receptive to the views of Esurians.
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 9:00 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Originally Posted by A.B.C
Jon
I have been following your conversations with interest and thought you may be interested in the Costa Esuri Owners Group which has been set up. The general consensus seems to be that more voices are better than one.
Here is our opportunity to join together for property owners to speak with strength on the important issues which affect us all.

Arthur
Hi A.B.C. Welcome to the forum!
As I said before I'll be the first to join the Owners Group/Residents Association.
Well done
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Old Feb 15th 2010, 11:00 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

Arthur
Jon
Good posts all around.
Am I the only one left scratching my head & wondering if there some kind of smoke screen in front of this Bank Guarantee?
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Old Feb 16th 2010, 1:04 pm
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Default Re: Costa Esuri - Ayamonte - EUC

IMHO Jon is right in stating the EUC problem is best addressed as three separate although connected issues.

Appeals Process

A note of caution. If the EUC is declared illegal, who will organise and pay for the work needed to ensure that the CE area, external to the Inter-Community, private plots/villas and golf courses, does not fall into total dereliction? Fadesa hasn't the money, and the Town Hall hasn't the will. And for certain ConfiServe and L & G are not going to do it for nothing. Although I have some sympathy with John & Kath's view that we should not support an illegal organization, it might be more pragmatic in this instance to keep the EUC functioning, as that should ensure that CE is kept looking good overall.

Bank Guarantees

It seems to me that the Bank Guarantees are there to ensure that the developer meets his obligation to provide what was promised in the Planning Agreement. I feel that other agency involvement should be confined to pressing the Town Hall to do its job. SL's addressing of the issue with the prospective opposition's mayoral candidate is highly appropriate, especially as I believe that local council elections are imminent. What concerns me is that the Ayamonte mayor stands on both sides of the fence. Thus, any pressure from the EUC is negated. I note that the Calahunda EUC states that the EUC President must be an owner, and that the Town Hall is limited to providing one non-owning observer with the right to speak, but not vote. Do the official Spanish Horizontal Property statutes also specify this? I feel that the EUC would be better served if the mayor was only given observer status on the EUC Board and a new President elected, who owns and permanently lives at CE, and is fluent in both Spanish and English. (Is that too much to ask?)

MF Payment to the EUC

First of all, its not just MF. Albatross Golf, Sun and Sea, and other developers have land, together with completed properties at CE. For these not to pay their EUC dues would result in a considerable increase (possibly four-fold) in the EUC bills of those paying, at least in the short term. So we should not be hoping that they do not pay, as MF's vote and presence on the Board is a small price to pay for their full contribution. In practice, I suspect they will all pay as otherwise there will have an immediate 20% increase in the amount owed. Its almost 20th Feb, so we will soon see. I feel that there will be no problem in excluding any non-payers. Nevertheless, Administrator pursuit of non-payers to the full legal extent will be is essential.

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