Originally Posted by John & Kath (Post 7822129)

Yer back I support a cheap simultaneous translation of proceedings. I'm happy with the committee for now but would love to have some minutes of the first two meetings Spanish or English we can get the gist of them if we have them. Has Arthur seen them?

Originally Posted by yes we can (Post 7827634)

Hi John & Kath:)

I will send you the minutes.

Originally Posted by John & Kath (Post 7829250)

Thanks for that I have put it through Google and it is interesting but this appears to be a meeting in March which I was not aware happened.

Originally Posted by Jon-Bxl (Post 7908341)

UH-OH

Please correct me if I am wrong, but here are some documents for information. My earlier concerns - that sparked off this thread (that has gone quiet) seem to be getting more realistic,

Take a look at the attached - if you are at all interested in where your money will go - and how much more they can potentially insist on via the property taxes - which are more controlled legally

Regards

Originally Posted by MikeJ (Post 7910612)

I understand that the formation of the EUC was dome so precipitately because Fadesa were about to voluntarily go into administration (yes I do mean voluntarily) and therefore no more work on the upkeep of the urbanisation could be funded. So many owners in CE (including Fedesa) have not paid their IBI - and also have not paid thier community charges - that there is a serious shortfall. The mayor could not see a reason why the citizens of Ayamonte should subsidise absent owners (and neither do I) and the EUC seemed to be a solution to the problem. Unfortunately the list of owners is incomplete or non-existant and so a lot of time is passing with no income while this is being sorted out. So if there is anyone to blame then blame those who have not paid their taxes and charges. (If this includes you then shame on you and pay up!) . If you know anyone who isn't paying then encourage them to pay!
It is also important to register the empadronamiente (?) as Ayamonte gets a capitation grant from the Andalucian junta I believe.

Originally Posted by yes we can (Post 7827634)

Hi John & Kath:)

I will send you the minutes.

Originally Posted by MikeJ (Post 7928573)

I have (indirectly) some correspondence from Steve Tipper. He is reluctant for personal reasons to post it himself on British Expats but he is willing for the contents to be posted. So I have edited the letter to take out any opinions which could cause a flood of misguided rumours and ill-informed speculation and left in the 'facts' as he presented them [don't shoot the messenger if you don't hear what you want to hear]

Originally Posted by Jon-Bxl (Post 7964846)

Will someone please correct me if I am wrong with my understanding of the situation, I could easily be wrong, in fact I hope I am !! Also put me right if my fears are ungrounded, I hope so. As someone mentioned there could be some sort of spat going on and I dont want to be sucked/suckered into that.

The thing that concerns me is that Fadesa is heavily on the board and are not "good citizens" when it comes to paying their debts.

Sure the EUC is different to the communities, (where they havent paid) but their history with us do not bode well for the EUC. "First time shame on them - second time shame on us."

Also we are seen as huge cash cows and dont have a strong single voice, as many people have second homes there + are too busy in their daily lives to get involved en-masse. The potential for misuse of our funds are clear... even if there is no misuse at present.

Now if I read the attachments correctly (and I may not have - - as someone said it loses in the translation. ) Fadesa have voted themselves immunity and cannot be removed from the board...... also thinking very negatively there is a huge financial debt of 6m Euros for which they have left a promisory note to pay the EUC. With immunity I worry they can just just delay payment - after all they've done it before.... loads of times.. And what happened... we were asked to pay a shortfall in extra one-off special payments, with some vague promise to have it returned 'later'. We all know how long these things take to get resolved... even without immunity.

So we have if I understand this properly

- an EUC board that has immunity and control - for some or all of its members
- has the right through council taxes to ask whatever they want
- Have (the Fadesa part) already a terrible payment history and heavily in debt to us, in the community + inter community fees.
- they apparentely seem to have (the Fadesa part) ways to avoid payment however.,, and are immune from being ejected from the board. Can this really be true - I hope Ive heard wrong.!
- We however MUST pay what they ask and cant vote if we are late payers.
- Also if I understood properly, they stopped an extra-ordinary, meeting to question the decision they made for immunity and perpetuity etc. So apparentely they just avoid dissent.

Ive mentioned this before and I think as a result this thread was started.... its OUR money, the Brits contribute a LOT.... all other community inter-community meetings are simultaneous bi-lingual translation with bi-lingual minutes.

As things become clear and you look at the whole picture - it is not good and the potential for us to be "had" is higher. Having bi-lingual meetings (like ALL others) is one way for us non-spanish speakers, of which there are a lot, to be involved and to understand and vote accordingly. As we do it for all other meetings, whats the problem with doing it for the EUC? THe cost is NOT significant - especially split over such a bigger group. Also I see no reason why an up front and transparent organisation would have any issue with making them bi-lingual.

Again I may have misunderstood all this - and Im not suggesting that there is wrong-doing - just that the potential of misuse is getting higher all the time. Thinking negatively, there is a chance of a possible 'stitch up' coming down the line for us.

I'd hate to be sitting in a bar sometime in the future saying "they saw us coming"

Regards
Jon

Originally Posted by Luz (Post 7966502)

Hi Jon,
I think you may have a few things wrong. I understand that it is very difficult trying to untangle fact from fiction when you read all that is written about the EUC. Some people write from a personal point of view, others from and objective point of view, some post rumours, others post fact - it's a bit of a mish mash and it is hard to get to the truth.
There is an EUC in Nuevo Portil. They are paying around 28 euros per quarter in townhouses. Nuevo Portil has nothing to do with Martinsa Fadesa. It comes under the jurisdiction of Cartaya. If you look at the amount of homes in Cartaya per square km. and look at the amount of homes in Nuevo Portil per square km it becomes obvious that the upkeep, for example, on roads would be greater in Nuevo Portil. The upkeep on green areas would be more expensive etc etc. The houses in general are more expensive in Nuevo Portil than in Cartaya. There is a golf course, swimming pools etc etc. It is mainly second home owners, holiday homes. There is a mixture of nationalities. If you change Nuevo Portil and Cartaya for Costa Esuri and Ayamonte - would it make sense?
One difference is that the residents in Nuevo Portil are paying the charge. Costa Esuri residents are not.
The fact that Martinsa Fadesa are not paying their fees at the moment comes down to the small problem of not having any money. This has also happened to many Costa Esuri owners who can't afford or don't want to pay the community fees - not just Martinsa Fadesa.
The fact that there are Martinsa Fadesa representatives on the board does not, in my opinion, have any sinister connotations. They simply stated at the first meeting that because they had made the mess they wanted to help clear it up.
The 6 million euros was never going to be for the EUC. That is a rumour that has been perpetuated. The 6 million is a bank guarantee for any problems in the infrastructure of Costa Esuri.
Fadesa will have to pay their EUC quotas but you are correct in that they have a way out of paying. Quite simple - the houses are taken over by banks who then pay the fees, as is happening on quite a few communities where the community fees are now being paid by banks. It is normal practice. The debt goes with the property. Nothing sinister there.
I would feel a bit worried if I read your post and your inference that Costa Esuri residents could be stitched up. I don't think that is the case. Why would you presume that the Ayamonte Town Hall is corrupt? Nepotism exists, yes, but financial corruption on the scale that your are suggesting?
After all the scandals in recent years most Town Halls are very, very careful about financial decisions.
I feel that the conspiracy theories have been allowed to grow and grow and you have got it wrong.
As I see it, eventually you will all have to pay. It will be in the region of 30 - 60 euros per quarter. The Costa Esuri development will be well looked after and secure. Neither Comfortservi (the company who were doing the initial work) nor Ayamonte Town Hall will get rich on your payments.
The date you start paying, who will be on the EUC board and who the EUC administrators will be - I really don't know.
It is stated on your deeds that an EUC would be formed. Everybody signed those deeds for their properties. It is presumed that you were all aware.

Originally Posted by Jon-Bxl (Post 7973743)

Hi Luz - thanks the for the update, and I was hoping that I had got something wrong.

Firstly though I must say that nowhere in the post did I mention a corrupt town hall. I was looking at what is and will be a major contributor, Fadesa. Who are in a lot of control and have arranged it so that they cant be shut out. It could be argued that they hold the purse-strings.

I'm sure we can have faith in our public officials!

Sure they don't have money because of the bankruptcy, but they are in administration and will come out soon. My history with them has not been good, even before their problems, and I don't have a great deal of faith in them, having been burned before. When I remember some of the posts a few years back, I'm not alone.

Even if Fadesa dump some properties to the banks and reduce their financial burden to the Inter-communities, communities and EUC, their ownership and payments still are significant and have a major effect on the quality of the work we can do in our communities. For example in one of the manzana's near us, the pool is closed (no money to run it - due to non payment of dues, Fadesa being the bulk) and the residents have to use another one in another Manzana.

The history is not good, pre Fadesa-fall - add that to the experience we have on the community/intercommunity. (That's why I said "first time shame on them, second time shame on us" in my post.)

Then we introduce the recent history we have had with the EUC e.g No informing/invitations to EUC meetings, no minutes - now immunity and stopping dissent of people who want to change that. And my alarm bells start to ring. Its on these facts that I hope I have misunderstood something, if this is not true, I breathe easier. Problem: I just don't know for sure.

That's why I keep banging on about bi-lingual meetings, as one simple and cheap way to have some transparency. I don't think I am being overly concerned about this, the fact is (based on the posts), and as you say, that there is a lot of misunderstanding out there. No transparency = No understanding.

So I'm not surprised that there is lots confusion out there based on all this - and I'm a bit relieved that you feel comfortable Luz, as you seem to be in the know.

One question do the other EUC charges come from the property taxes (e.g in Nuevo Portil?) - or is it a separate charge, please. Also even though we havent paid so far, we know its coming and will be backdated. I dont know how they have managed to buy cars, employ people etc at CE - without any money so far. Weird!

But there remains for me, a nagging feeling. That whilst there may be nothing 'bad' happening today - we are opening the doors for us being stitched up later or feeling that we were taken advantage of.

I realise I may be in the 'conspiracy theorist' camp - but the tea leaves + previous experiences leave me wondering.

Thanks for the interesting info. We will be there soon, for a long visit as we love it there - and hopefully all will seem better once not far-away!

Jon

Originally Posted by Carol&John (Post 7978243)

Here's a suggestion...
Would anyone like to meet for drinks, say at the clubhouse, to discuss the EUC information to date? PM me.
P.S. I'll be the lady with the olives...;)

Carol