littlejimmy

Hmmm. Not really known for it's lack of collateral damage, that method.

Maybe this will prove the last straw and the US will tell them to quit while they're ahead...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

benzonar

Yawn!

A lack of belief in something does not equal faith. Do you have a lack of belief in unicorns and fairies, if so would you consider this to be a position of faith?
Or merely the rational rejection of a preposterous notion that is not backed up by any evidence.

You are creating a straw man, but then religions create invisible ones so it's not much different really.

Pablo

Well, yawn, I did not say that a lack of belief in something equals faith, so why did you?

What kind of evidence would you be looking for?

benzonar

Peer reviewed testable evidence. Although moving the stars to spell "Surprise" would suffice.

Pablo

What constitutes a "peer" in such a context? What constitutes "testable evidence"?

benzonar

What do you mean by "such a context"?


Testable evidence is normally perceived to be that which has the potential to be falsifiable, i.e. be proved false otherwise what is the point of testing it.

Karl Popper covered this in an interesting essay.

http://www.kenrahn.com/jfk/critical_...fiability.html

Norm_uk

It appears I have faith in what Pablo?

You asked me why others should share my "faith"? If I do have a "faith" Pablo it is not so arrogant and conceited as to assume it is the one and only way to go about life and so I would never assume others should share it.

So I suppose my faith is simply Humanity, Liberty, Love and Reason.

N.

Norm_uk

It doesn't matter who it was because our leaders will go on TV as say it's a just a minority and the leaders of the group from which the bombers came will tell us they did not practice or follow the religion in question - that they were not "true" believers.

I am sure the invasion into Byzantine Sicily in 652 was also by people who weren't true believers too...as was the invasion and occupation of Spain in 711 (300 years before the first Crusade was even suggested). The invasions into France in 731 were likely by people who weren't following their religion properly either. And the sacking and looting of Rome (including St. Paul's) in 846 was obviously by fringe extremists.

Looking further we can clearly see the occupation of Anatolia (now called Turkey) culminating in the fall of Constantinople in 1453 was an isolated act of terrorism, as was the conquest of a previously Zoroastrian Iran. India of course was never attacked except by a few fringe extremist groups too.

And the Barbary pirates who took many slaves from Western and Southern Europe (including England) and who raided so many merchant ships the US was forced to form it's first Navy to deal with them were naturally just an isolated group who didn't understand their religion.

So you see...we cannot sit here and even suggest such people are anything other than Republicans or Jews or European Colonial policy or whoever...

Of course one thing I will say seriously is I have yet to hear of a Jew shooting or blowing up German civilians in retaliation for what Hitler did.

Peace.

N.

Eva

Well that's the whole crux (pardon the pun) of the matter isn't it?

Faith probably signifies the same to you as it does to me however my actual mindset or 'credo' is probably world's apart from yours....

Objectively, having faith means believing wholeheartedly in something and having unswerving devotion to it..It is the 'something' which makes the faith personal or subjective.

Imho, many have 'faith'- not further described at this point, in their lives as a form of comfort and self reflection. Others have it as a form of comfort and guaruantee that when their day comes they will be judged favourably by the 'enigma' they have prayed to /devoted time to/observed teachings of during their lives in the hope that they will pass into a another world wherein they will reap the rewards of the faithful.

How does one identify their chosen faith? Conditioning? family values? personal journeys?.Or do they succumb to one of the greatest PR pitches ever? Man, oh Man there are some great salesmen out there these days.....they could make Richard Branson look like Charlie Chaplin.......and, currently - IMHO- they all seem to be pitching from madras schools in Pakistan.The most aggressive salesmen ever-they'd bomb your Grannie for a Heavenly bonus of a Heavenly virgin or a few extra thousand for the bereaved family of the latest martyr. It is that fanaticism which is pernicious and evil and bizarrely demonstrated in the name of religion.....in the name of God.
Fanaticism, radicalization is the scourge of our generation.

Then we have 'blind faith'.....exemplers of which are invariably Catholic and Protestants whose faith revolves round history, family persuasion and a football stadium or two.They hate each other and kick the sh*t outta each other because that's how it is .....a Rangers household, a Celtic household, an Everton household a Liverpool household- devoted blindly to the Pope or William of Orange. In the name of religion.Same same to a degree Arabs/Jews -family history.
We each are entitled to our own 'Credo' and should be allowed the freedom to worship but the global carnage that is ongoing in the name of God is sickening, shameful, unacceptable and hardly empowers our children to take this world into the next century with 'faith' in humanity, tolerence or peace. Regardless of who your 'God' is or how you worship- regardless of how loopy you might think the Scientologists are and how difficult you find say, John Travolta's allegedly probable denial of conventional medical treatment of his son - or the fatalistic 'Inshallah' we hear all too often in the UAE when preventable fatal road accidents occur-IT IS wrong to challenge that with a bomb strapped to your back or left on a school bus.
Live and let live, let everyone: Muslim, Catholic, Bhuddist etc observe their faith peacefully
There are factions sadly who cannot........and they call it Godly love. Pah!

Norm_uk

Science = Questions that may never be answered...even after several generations.

Religion = Answers that may never be questioned...for all generations.

Which one gave us penicillin, powered flight, drought resistant crops, electricity and the internet?

And which one will give us clean fuel and cures for cancer one day?

N.

Pablo

Well it's a beginning, isn't it.

Eva

Of another road to nowhere?

Pablo

"Proved false" to whom? That was my question. To you? To the "peers" you mention? Who is the adequate judge of the evidence you talk about? And how do you yourself judge who is the adequate judge? Hence my question of how you identify your "peers".

Pablo

I don't understand what you're asking.

Pablo

So your test of what is good is what produces the most world-altering technology?