View Poll Results: Should Britiain Leave EU
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll
The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Jun 27th 2016, 11:54 am
#856
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Honestly, everyone is wasting their time worrying about this now.
I would say now that the UK is simply not going to leave. We bluffed, and they called us. It's game over.
Carswell is still on TV saying we want single market access, but not membership. Not going to happen. It simply is not.
The choice therefore is very simple. Totally in, or totally out. Most of the Tory 'out' side was driven by the mistaken belief that the EU would roll over and do a cusy deal. It won't. It doesn't have to, because if it offers no deal, the UK just stays, because the alternative is just unthinkable. The only thing holding the UK economy together now is the prospect that something, some kind of deal to keep the UK in the single market will be done. If you push the button, it's goodnight forever. The UK economy will be finished.
The EU is not going to be happy with this uncertainty, but after a few months, people will slowly realize that the UK is simply not going to ever push the button and things will stabilize and recover.
As a face saving deal, the UK then might be offered something so that the EU and UK can close the final loose end. This deal would basically to convert the UK's membership to a bilateral deal, kind of like Switzerland has. But it'd be quick, it simply maintains all the UK's obligations and benefits.
The UK would lose its seat at the EU table, so would no longer have input over rules. But it would not be obliged to any further integration, EU army, etc. The UK contribution would be slashed from 350m to 70m (80%!), but the UK would no longer receive any rebate or EU funds back such as CAP, etc. (the smart ones will have noticed, this is exactly net what the UK pays at present, but thanks to the 350m lie, it will be easy for the UK to sell this to the plebs as an 80% cut... kind of hard for the same people who put 350m on the bus to argue that was a lie and we actually only paid 70m anyway).
And everyone will live happily ever after. UK passports won't say European Union on, business carries on, banks stay in London (though London no longer sets the rules), etc.
I would say now that the UK is simply not going to leave. We bluffed, and they called us. It's game over.
Carswell is still on TV saying we want single market access, but not membership. Not going to happen. It simply is not.
The choice therefore is very simple. Totally in, or totally out. Most of the Tory 'out' side was driven by the mistaken belief that the EU would roll over and do a cusy deal. It won't. It doesn't have to, because if it offers no deal, the UK just stays, because the alternative is just unthinkable. The only thing holding the UK economy together now is the prospect that something, some kind of deal to keep the UK in the single market will be done. If you push the button, it's goodnight forever. The UK economy will be finished.
The EU is not going to be happy with this uncertainty, but after a few months, people will slowly realize that the UK is simply not going to ever push the button and things will stabilize and recover.
As a face saving deal, the UK then might be offered something so that the EU and UK can close the final loose end. This deal would basically to convert the UK's membership to a bilateral deal, kind of like Switzerland has. But it'd be quick, it simply maintains all the UK's obligations and benefits.
The UK would lose its seat at the EU table, so would no longer have input over rules. But it would not be obliged to any further integration, EU army, etc. The UK contribution would be slashed from 350m to 70m (80%!), but the UK would no longer receive any rebate or EU funds back such as CAP, etc. (the smart ones will have noticed, this is exactly net what the UK pays at present, but thanks to the 350m lie, it will be easy for the UK to sell this to the plebs as an 80% cut... kind of hard for the same people who put 350m on the bus to argue that was a lie and we actually only paid 70m anyway).
And everyone will live happily ever after. UK passports won't say European Union on, business carries on, banks stay in London (though London no longer sets the rules), etc.
Jun 27th 2016, 12:19 pm
#857
Gold-Helmeted Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Setubal-ish
Posts: 691
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Indeed, I suppose one could say the same about markets too. One friend commented to me that the market didn't anticipate the out vote and therefore is probably wrong about the consequences too.
I think markets are actually quite good at figuring out the economic consequences of changes, but I think as with the vote, they're not very good at guessing how the public might vote on things, or how politicians might manoevre themselves out of what in this case is an entirely man-made and self-inflicted crisis with a fairly obvious solution.
I think markets are actually quite good at figuring out the economic consequences of changes, but I think as with the vote, they're not very good at guessing how the public might vote on things, or how politicians might manoevre themselves out of what in this case is an entirely man-made and self-inflicted crisis with a fairly obvious solution.
Jun 27th 2016, 12:21 pm
#858
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Indeed, I suppose one could say the same about markets too. One friend commented to me that the market didn't anticipate the out vote and therefore is probably wrong about the consequences too.
I think markets are actually quite good at figuring out the economic consequences of changes, but I think as with the vote, they're not very good at guessing how the public might vote on things, or how politicians might manoevre themselves out of what in this case is an entirely man-made and self-inflicted crisis with a fairly obvious solution.
I think markets are actually quite good at figuring out the economic consequences of changes, but I think as with the vote, they're not very good at guessing how the public might vote on things, or how politicians might manoevre themselves out of what in this case is an entirely man-made and self-inflicted crisis with a fairly obvious solution.
Jun 27th 2016, 2:39 pm
#859
Wannabe Cycling God
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: West Kensington, Dubai
Posts: 1,157
Jun 28th 2016, 3:04 am
#860
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2015
Location: Abu Dhabi via Barcelona
Posts: 1,478
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Honestly, everyone is wasting their time worrying about this now.
I would say now that the UK is simply not going to leave. We bluffed, and they called us. It's game over.
Carswell is still on TV saying we want single market access, but not membership. Not going to happen. It simply is not.
The choice therefore is very simple. Totally in, or totally out. Most of the Tory 'out' side was driven by the mistaken belief that the EU would roll over and do a cusy deal. It won't. It doesn't have to, because if it offers no deal, the UK just stays, because the alternative is just unthinkable. The only thing holding the UK economy together now is the prospect that something, some kind of deal to keep the UK in the single market will be done. If you push the button, it's goodnight forever. The UK economy will be finished.
The EU is not going to be happy with this uncertainty, but after a few months, people will slowly realize that the UK is simply not going to ever push the button and things will stabilize and recover.
As a face saving deal, the UK then might be offered something so that the EU and UK can close the final loose end. This deal would basically to convert the UK's membership to a bilateral deal, kind of like Switzerland has. But it'd be quick, it simply maintains all the UK's obligations and benefits.
The UK would lose its seat at the EU table, so would no longer have input over rules. But it would not be obliged to any further integration, EU army, etc. The UK contribution would be slashed from 350m to 70m (80%!), but the UK would no longer receive any rebate or EU funds back such as CAP, etc. (the smart ones will have noticed, this is exactly net what the UK pays at present, but thanks to the 350m lie, it will be easy for the UK to sell this to the plebs as an 80% cut... kind of hard for the same people who put 350m on the bus to argue that was a lie and we actually only paid 70m anyway).
And everyone will live happily ever after. UK passports won't say European Union on, business carries on, banks stay in London (though London no longer sets the rules), etc.
Remember, the referendum was never about immigration or the single market. It was only about leaving the EU, which the UK in the above solution would have done. The PM would champion it as a victory, he cut the UK's contribution by 80%, maintain single market access and left the EU.
I should also add, for this reason I think GBP and the FTSE have been oversold. They are going to suffer for 6 months, but the longer this goes on, the longer people realize nothing will change, and things will just revert back to where they were beforehand.
I would say now that the UK is simply not going to leave. We bluffed, and they called us. It's game over.
Carswell is still on TV saying we want single market access, but not membership. Not going to happen. It simply is not.
The choice therefore is very simple. Totally in, or totally out. Most of the Tory 'out' side was driven by the mistaken belief that the EU would roll over and do a cusy deal. It won't. It doesn't have to, because if it offers no deal, the UK just stays, because the alternative is just unthinkable. The only thing holding the UK economy together now is the prospect that something, some kind of deal to keep the UK in the single market will be done. If you push the button, it's goodnight forever. The UK economy will be finished.
The EU is not going to be happy with this uncertainty, but after a few months, people will slowly realize that the UK is simply not going to ever push the button and things will stabilize and recover.
As a face saving deal, the UK then might be offered something so that the EU and UK can close the final loose end. This deal would basically to convert the UK's membership to a bilateral deal, kind of like Switzerland has. But it'd be quick, it simply maintains all the UK's obligations and benefits.
The UK would lose its seat at the EU table, so would no longer have input over rules. But it would not be obliged to any further integration, EU army, etc. The UK contribution would be slashed from 350m to 70m (80%!), but the UK would no longer receive any rebate or EU funds back such as CAP, etc. (the smart ones will have noticed, this is exactly net what the UK pays at present, but thanks to the 350m lie, it will be easy for the UK to sell this to the plebs as an 80% cut... kind of hard for the same people who put 350m on the bus to argue that was a lie and we actually only paid 70m anyway).
And everyone will live happily ever after. UK passports won't say European Union on, business carries on, banks stay in London (though London no longer sets the rules), etc.
Remember, the referendum was never about immigration or the single market. It was only about leaving the EU, which the UK in the above solution would have done. The PM would champion it as a victory, he cut the UK's contribution by 80%, maintain single market access and left the EU.
I should also add, for this reason I think GBP and the FTSE have been oversold. They are going to suffer for 6 months, but the longer this goes on, the longer people realize nothing will change, and things will just revert back to where they were beforehand.
You remainers just can't accept democracy can you, as i've said, if the vote went the other way you wouldn't have the leavers kicking up a stink, we accept the will of the population. Perhaps you lot should too.
Jun 28th 2016, 4:51 am
#861
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 14,284
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Honestly, everyone is wasting their time worrying about this now.
I would say now that the UK is simply not going to leave. We bluffed, and they called us. It's game over.
Carswell is still on TV saying we want single market access, but not membership. Not going to happen. It simply is not.
The choice therefore is very simple. Totally in, or totally out. Most of the Tory 'out' side was driven by the mistaken belief that the EU would roll over and do a cusy deal. It won't. It doesn't have to, because if it offers no deal, the UK just stays, because the alternative is just unthinkable. The only thing holding the UK economy together now is the prospect that something, some kind of deal to keep the UK in the single market will be done. If you push the button, it's goodnight forever. The UK economy will be finished.
The EU is not going to be happy with this uncertainty, but after a few months, people will slowly realize that the UK is simply not going to ever push the button and things will stabilize and recover.
As a face saving deal, the UK then might be offered something so that the EU and UK can close the final loose end. This deal would basically to convert the UK's membership to a bilateral deal, kind of like Switzerland has. But it'd be quick, it simply maintains all the UK's obligations and benefits.
The UK would lose its seat at the EU table, so would no longer have input over rules. But it would not be obliged to any further integration, EU army, etc. The UK contribution would be slashed from 350m to 70m (80%!), but the UK would no longer receive any rebate or EU funds back such as CAP, etc. (the smart ones will have noticed, this is exactly net what the UK pays at present, but thanks to the 350m lie, it will be easy for the UK to sell this to the plebs as an 80% cut... kind of hard for the same people who put 350m on the bus to argue that was a lie and we actually only paid 70m anyway).
And everyone will live happily ever after. UK passports won't say European Union on, business carries on, banks stay in London (though London no longer sets the rules), etc.
Remember, the referendum was never about immigration or the single market. It was only about leaving the EU, which the UK in the above solution would have done. The PM would champion it as a victory, he cut the UK's contribution by 80%, maintain single market access and left the EU.
I should also add, for this reason I think GBP and the FTSE have been oversold. They are going to suffer for 6 months, but the longer this goes on, the longer people realize nothing will change, and things will just revert back to where they were beforehand.
I would say now that the UK is simply not going to leave. We bluffed, and they called us. It's game over.
Carswell is still on TV saying we want single market access, but not membership. Not going to happen. It simply is not.
The choice therefore is very simple. Totally in, or totally out. Most of the Tory 'out' side was driven by the mistaken belief that the EU would roll over and do a cusy deal. It won't. It doesn't have to, because if it offers no deal, the UK just stays, because the alternative is just unthinkable. The only thing holding the UK economy together now is the prospect that something, some kind of deal to keep the UK in the single market will be done. If you push the button, it's goodnight forever. The UK economy will be finished.
The EU is not going to be happy with this uncertainty, but after a few months, people will slowly realize that the UK is simply not going to ever push the button and things will stabilize and recover.
As a face saving deal, the UK then might be offered something so that the EU and UK can close the final loose end. This deal would basically to convert the UK's membership to a bilateral deal, kind of like Switzerland has. But it'd be quick, it simply maintains all the UK's obligations and benefits.
The UK would lose its seat at the EU table, so would no longer have input over rules. But it would not be obliged to any further integration, EU army, etc. The UK contribution would be slashed from 350m to 70m (80%!), but the UK would no longer receive any rebate or EU funds back such as CAP, etc. (the smart ones will have noticed, this is exactly net what the UK pays at present, but thanks to the 350m lie, it will be easy for the UK to sell this to the plebs as an 80% cut... kind of hard for the same people who put 350m on the bus to argue that was a lie and we actually only paid 70m anyway).
And everyone will live happily ever after. UK passports won't say European Union on, business carries on, banks stay in London (though London no longer sets the rules), etc.
Remember, the referendum was never about immigration or the single market. It was only about leaving the EU, which the UK in the above solution would have done. The PM would champion it as a victory, he cut the UK's contribution by 80%, maintain single market access and left the EU.
I should also add, for this reason I think GBP and the FTSE have been oversold. They are going to suffer for 6 months, but the longer this goes on, the longer people realize nothing will change, and things will just revert back to where they were beforehand.
And don't assume Leavers thought there would be an easy deal, I doubt there are many that ever thought this was going to be easy. Personally I have few recollections of the EU acting favourably towards Britain even when we were in, they refused to budge when the referendum was looming, why on earth would I think they would give us an easy deal now? I will prepare myself for nasty and spiteful and anything less will be a bonus. But so be it, I don't want to be in a club that kneecaps people when they try to leave.
Jun 28th 2016, 6:42 am
#862
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
We will be leaving it seems clear to me that the government is going to abide by the results, they are already talking in those terms.
And don't assume Leavers thought there would be an easy deal, I doubt there are many that ever thought this was going to be easy...
And don't assume Leavers thought there would be an easy deal, I doubt there are many that ever thought this was going to be easy...
All they "thought" about was "getting back my country", "let's give this ruling elite a kick up its jacksie", and "we don't want no more foreigners".
Any retort of "I know as well as you, if not better than you, the sound reasons for leaving" is irrelevant. The majority of those who voted Leave did so by answering for themselves the wrong questions, shamelessly put to them by Boris, Farage et al.
Jun 28th 2016, 7:15 am
#864
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 14,284
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
I bet you a pound to a cent that the vast majority of those who voted Leave never thought. They never thought about the impossibility of the non-existent £350m a week going to the NHS. They never thought about the weasel words behind both Leave campaigns' "control immigration". They never thought about the 80% of British law stemming from the EU being a lie. They never thought about the fact that many (in some towns, nearly all) the foreigners they meet don't look terribly European. And they never thought that experts in their field just might know how economics work.
All they "thought" about was "getting back my country", "let's give this ruling elite a kick up its jacksie", and "we don't want no more foreigners".
Any retort of "I know as well as you, if not better than you, the sound reasons for leaving" is irrelevant. The majority of those who voted Leave did so by answering for themselves the wrong questions, shamelessly put to them by Boris, Farage et al.
All they "thought" about was "getting back my country", "let's give this ruling elite a kick up its jacksie", and "we don't want no more foreigners".
Any retort of "I know as well as you, if not better than you, the sound reasons for leaving" is irrelevant. The majority of those who voted Leave did so by answering for themselves the wrong questions, shamelessly put to them by Boris, Farage et al.
Have you considered that?
No, because you are one of a large number of Remainers that cannot accept that anyone could have a different opinion to yourself and the only thing you can come up with is to call people stupid and racist. Do you see the irony? I bet you don't. I have learnt in the last few days that whilst being racsit is unacceptable (agreed), being ageist is perfectly fine.
Jun 28th 2016, 7:36 am
#865
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2015
Location: Abu Dhabi via Barcelona
Posts: 1,478
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
I bet you a pound to a cent that the vast majority of those who voted Leave never thought. They never thought about the impossibility of the non-existent £350m a week going to the NHS. They never thought about the weasel words behind both Leave campaigns' "control immigration". They never thought about the 80% of British law stemming from the EU being a lie. They never thought about the fact that many (in some towns, nearly all) the foreigners they meet don't look terribly European. And they never thought that experts in their field just might know how economics work.
All they "thought" about was "getting back my country", "let's give this ruling elite a kick up its jacksie", and "we don't want no more foreigners".
Any retort of "I know as well as you, if not better than you, the sound reasons for leaving" is irrelevant. The majority of those who voted Leave did so by answering for themselves the wrong questions, shamelessly put to them by Boris, Farage et al.
All they "thought" about was "getting back my country", "let's give this ruling elite a kick up its jacksie", and "we don't want no more foreigners".
Any retort of "I know as well as you, if not better than you, the sound reasons for leaving" is irrelevant. The majority of those who voted Leave did so by answering for themselves the wrong questions, shamelessly put to them by Boris, Farage et al.
Suck it.
Jun 28th 2016, 7:54 am
#866
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,319
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
What I'm not over, is the lies that were told (on both sides), the truths that were pointed out (and claimed by the other sides that these were nothing more than scaremongering).
We've had the vote, now what's the plan? It appears the 'Plan' is to delay the official start to the exit for another 4 months, and even longer it seems in some quarters.
I voted Remain, but if we're leaving, I'm going to support that decision. If we're not leaving, someone's going to have to explain why the public's will is being ignored.
Jun 28th 2016, 7:56 am
#867
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
I don't see the need for all the drama and hate. If nothing else, the vote has done three things:
1) highlighted the deep concerns over immigration
2) will force a deep rethink of the EU.
3) highlighted/created the deep divide in the population
Points 1 and 2 are positive outcomes. Point 3 is a disaster and the real failure of this process. That said, in someways I'm pleased this divide has been uncovered now and not after it is way too late (although some might say it already is).
No point in debating the pro-cons of the EU membership now anyway, that's done. As long as I can keep my EU settlement rights, and floods of immigrants prop up my BTLs then I'm happy.
1) highlighted the deep concerns over immigration
2) will force a deep rethink of the EU.
3) highlighted/created the deep divide in the population
Points 1 and 2 are positive outcomes. Point 3 is a disaster and the real failure of this process. That said, in someways I'm pleased this divide has been uncovered now and not after it is way too late (although some might say it already is).
No point in debating the pro-cons of the EU membership now anyway, that's done. As long as I can keep my EU settlement rights, and floods of immigrants prop up my BTLs then I'm happy.
Jun 28th 2016, 7:57 am
#868
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Yes, Remain lost. I'm over that fact.
What I'm not over, is the lies that were told (on both sides), the truths that were pointed out (and claimed by the other sides that these were nothing more than scaremongering).
We've had the vote, now what's the plan? It appears the 'Plan' is to delay the official start to the exit for another 4 months, and even longer it seems in some quarters.
I voted Remain, but if we're leaving, I'm going to support that decision. If we're not leaving, someone's going to have to explain why the public's will is being ignored.
What I'm not over, is the lies that were told (on both sides), the truths that were pointed out (and claimed by the other sides that these were nothing more than scaremongering).
We've had the vote, now what's the plan? It appears the 'Plan' is to delay the official start to the exit for another 4 months, and even longer it seems in some quarters.
I voted Remain, but if we're leaving, I'm going to support that decision. If we're not leaving, someone's going to have to explain why the public's will is being ignored.
Jun 28th 2016, 7:58 am
#870
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,520
Re: The Brexit; Are you in or out?
Comres post-referendum poll for the Sunday Mirror.
Sunday Mirror Post Referendum Poll « ComRes
Question: Most important issue in the decision to cast your vote:
The ability of Britain to make its own laws: Leave voters: 53%
Immigration: Leave voters: 34%
The economy: Remain voters: 67%
I know quite a few Remain voters who privately would love to leave the EU and expressed concern at immigration, but voted remain because of economic fears. On the whole I suspect there's more soft remainers than soft leavers.
There's no question that there's an ideological split between many Remain and Leave voters but trying to boil down the entire Leave movement to jingoism and racism is doing yourself a severe disservice.
It might be worthwhile to look at American history in this instance. There was a divide among the colonialists in their support for the revolution versus loyalty to the crown, with the more affluent Americans tending to be loyalists (economic fears was the big factor). Notwithstanding people like Washington or Jefferson, a number of pro-revolutionary Americans were the 18th century versions of xenophobics (Sam Adams comes to mind). After the war ended, the nascent United States did enter a period of economic stagnation and recession. But then it boomed and no one ever looked back.
As is the case in all revolutions, and we are undergoing a revolution of a type, there are ugly elements. But I have faith in the British populace to control the ugliness as we move forward to a new future. We have a great opportunity to create a model for 21st century Britain and in that model we will incorporate the current immigration population and absorb them into Britishness, but it will be on our terms and not because other people told us we must accept them with no restrictions or criticism.
Yes, I'm an optimist
Sunday Mirror Post Referendum Poll « ComRes
Question: Most important issue in the decision to cast your vote:
The ability of Britain to make its own laws: Leave voters: 53%
Immigration: Leave voters: 34%
The economy: Remain voters: 67%
I know quite a few Remain voters who privately would love to leave the EU and expressed concern at immigration, but voted remain because of economic fears. On the whole I suspect there's more soft remainers than soft leavers.
There's no question that there's an ideological split between many Remain and Leave voters but trying to boil down the entire Leave movement to jingoism and racism is doing yourself a severe disservice.
It might be worthwhile to look at American history in this instance. There was a divide among the colonialists in their support for the revolution versus loyalty to the crown, with the more affluent Americans tending to be loyalists (economic fears was the big factor). Notwithstanding people like Washington or Jefferson, a number of pro-revolutionary Americans were the 18th century versions of xenophobics (Sam Adams comes to mind). After the war ended, the nascent United States did enter a period of economic stagnation and recession. But then it boomed and no one ever looked back.
As is the case in all revolutions, and we are undergoing a revolution of a type, there are ugly elements. But I have faith in the British populace to control the ugliness as we move forward to a new future. We have a great opportunity to create a model for 21st century Britain and in that model we will incorporate the current immigration population and absorb them into Britishness, but it will be on our terms and not because other people told us we must accept them with no restrictions or criticism.
Yes, I'm an optimist