Hi all,

I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
for handling this treatment?

Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has anyone
stayed here, or know anyone who has?

Thanks
Dave

Your dad is right. I suggest you stay home and use the money to eat some
freedom fries.


"David Carter" wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    > I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    > telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    > anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    > for handling this treatment?
    > Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has anyone
    > stayed here, or know anyone who has?
    > Thanks
    > Dave

le Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:31:07 GMT, dans l'article , David Carter a dit ...

{ snip rote moronic questions about Americans' safety }

    > Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has anyone
    > stayed here, or know anyone who has?

Yeah, I know it. There's a mosque on either side of it.

Bon voyage.

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

le Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:58:53 -0800, dans l'article , Peter L a dit ...

    > Your dad is right. I suggest you stay home and use the money to eat some
    > freedom fries.

*cackle*

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:31:07 GMT, "David Carter"
wrote:

    >Hi all,
    >I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    >telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    >bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    >anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    >targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    >for handling this treatment?

The french are rude by nature, especially french waiters. In most
cases this is not aimed at the individual, they treat everyone foreign
like that. In Paris especially, folk can be a bit uppity and rude
even to other french people.

Rudeness might sometimes be inferred from the french lack of the
concept of "possibly". Everything is a stark Oui or Non which can
come across as a bit abrupt.

I remember in US several years ago being affronted when a woman at the
checkout in a store said in a fairly strident voice (about me) "He's
next". In UK it would be more common to say "this gentleman's next"
or "this man's next". "He" is just too abrupt and sounded
derogatory. However, I realised after hearing this expression a
few more times (not always about me) that this had become a normal
expression in US and that no rudeness was intended.

I have had waiters in Paris play games with me. We were in a cafe
near to Montmartre and I ordered "quatre cafés au lait". The waiter
shouted to the back "Quatre cafés crémes". When it came to
ordering a refresh I thought I had made a mistake the first time and
ordered "Quatre cafés crémes". The waiter shouted to the back
"quatre cafés au lait". There was no subtlety about it and we saw
the joke. The waiter was actually quite a friendly guy and we got
good service.

So I wouldn't be too concerned about french rudeness. If anyone does
want to be rude, just ignore them or laugh it off. It's usually the
way one takes these things that is the problem, not the original
rudeness.

Usual rules of being a good tourist apply - "don't try to thrust your
country or politics down their throats. You have chosen to be a
guest in their country so be respectful of their views"

Also don't use the quote I heard on the radio this afternoon - "God
bless the French. They are always there when they need you!"

Enjoy Paris.


Derek

On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:31:07 GMT, "David Carter"
wrote:

    >Does
    >anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    >targeted for poor treatment because of being an American?

A number of such incidents have been reported recently in the Wall
Street Journal, the BBC, and other media. It's not clear whether
these incidents are more common nowadays or simply more newsworthy.

    >Any suggestions for handling this treatment?

Ignore it. Laugh it off if you can. If you feel you must react, the
best response is to pity this boorish person. Do also look at your
own behavior to see if you might have provoked a reaction e.g., by
making derogatory comments about your host nation. If not, then again
I say ignore it.

Are some French people rude? You bet. Are "the French" rude? In my
experience, no more so than other Western nationalities.


___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

le Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:54:44 GMT, dans l'article , Charles Hawtrey a dit ...

    >>Does
    >>anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    >>targeted for poor treatment because of being an American?

    > A number of such incidents have been reported recently in the Wall
    > Street Journal, the BBC, and other media. It's not clear whether
    > these incidents are more common nowadays or simply more newsworthy.

I have checked the BBC website [1], google [2], google news [3], the
website of _The Washington Post_ [4], that of the _New York Times_ [5], and
can find _no_ mention of an American having been involved in an 'incident'
in Paris, or indeed, anywhere in France.

Please cite your source for the above allegation.


[1] url:http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=american+touri st+attacked+paris
[2] url:http://www.google.fr/search?q=%2Bamerican+%2Btourist+%2Battacked+%2Bpar is&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=fr&meta=
[3] url:http://news.google.fr/news?q=american+tourist+attacked+paris&hl=en&lr=&i e=UTF-8&sa=G&scoring=d
[4] url:http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=WP&p_theme=wpost&p_action=searc h&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0="american%20tourist%20attacked%20in%20Paris"&p_f ield_label-0=Section&s_dispstring=american%20tourist%20attack ed%20in%20Paris%20AND%20section(*)%20AND%20date(la st%20185%20days)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=-185qzD&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date&xcal_useweig hts=no
[5] url:http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=american+tourist+attacked+paris&date=p ast30days&submit.x=7&submit.y=3
--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:02:53 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
wrote:

    >I have checked the BBC website [1], google [2], google news [3], the
    >website of _The Washington Post_ [4], that of the _New York Times_ [5], and
    >can find _no_ mention of an American having been involved in an 'incident'
    >in Paris, or indeed, anywhere in France.

It depends on what you mean by an "incident." Apparently all of your
searches (see below) included the word "attack." This seems a bit
extreme for the context in which the question was posed, i.e., a
discussion about rudeness. My interpretation of "targeted for poor
treatment" (their original wording) was something like a casual
slight, or maybe being given poor service. Not life-threatening
stuff, to be sure, but to my mind more in keeping with the original
context than an "attack." Your interpretation may (and apparently
does) differ.

    >[1] url:http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=american+touri st+attacked+paris
    >[2] url:http://www.google.fr/search?q=%2Bamerican+%2Btourist+%2Battacked+%2Bpar is&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=fr&meta=
    >[3] url:http://news.google.fr/news?q=american+tourist+attacked+paris&hl=en&lr=&i e=UTF-8&sa=G&scoring=d
    >[4] url:http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=WP&p_theme=wpost&p_action=searc h&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0="american%20tourist%20attacked%20in%20Paris"&p_f ield_label-0=Section&s_dispstring=american%20tourist%20attack ed%20in%20Paris%20AND%20section(*)%20AND%20date(la st%20185%20days)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=-185qzD&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date&xcal_useweig hts=no
    >[5] url:http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=american+tourist+attacked+paris&date=p ast30days&submit.x=7&submit.y=3

___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

le Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:16:21 GMT, dans l'article , Charles Hawtrey a dit ...

    >>I have checked the BBC website [1], google [2], google news [3], the
    >>website of _The Washington Post_ [4], that of the _New York Times_ [5],
    >>and can find _no_ mention of an American having been involved in an
    >>'incident' in Paris, or indeed, anywhere in France.

    > It depends on what you mean by an "incident." Apparently all of your
    > searches (see below) included the word "attack." This seems a bit extreme
    > for the context in which the question was posed, i.e., a discussion about
    > rudeness. My interpretation of "targeted for poor treatment" (their
    > original wording) was something like a casual slight, or maybe being
    > given poor service. Not life-threatening stuff, to be sure, but to my
    > mind more in keeping with the original context than an "attack." Your
    > interpretation may (and apparently does) differ.

OK, point noted. I can't help but feel, however, that just as the 11
September attacks heightened 'awareness' of security to a level bordering
on hysteria (mention the word 'bomb' on a flight, even jokingly, and
there'll be guys in dark suits who talk into their sleeves, waiting for you
when the plane lands), so the criteria for 'anti-Americanism' seems to have
been altered, so that any 'off-the-cuff' remark is considered to be a
manifestation of some imagined 'anti-American' bias on the part the person
saying it.

It reminds me of last year, when the media (aided and abetted by Monsieur
Chirac and his campaign managers) were making much of the so-called
'dramatic rises' in juvenile delinquance. During discussion with a friend,
I noted that I had never been threatened, much less attacked, and he
replied that he had been the victim of a vicious attack by a 'little
toerag' I raised my eyebrow and asked him what had happened. He replied,
'A kid squirted a water pistol at me'.

I know him well enough to laugh in his face (and oh how I did !!), and even
as I type these words, I'm shaking in my chair with laughter. Ho, ho ..

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 03:27:33 +0000, Desmond Coughlan wrote:
    >
    > OK, point noted. I can't help but feel, however, that just as the 11
    > September attacks heightened 'awareness' of security to a level bordering
    > on hysteria (mention the word 'bomb' on a flight, even jokingly, and
    > there'll be guys in dark suits who talk into their sleeves, waiting for you
    > when the plane lands), so the criteria for 'anti-Americanism' seems to have
    > been altered, so that any 'off-the-cuff' remark is considered to be a
    > manifestation of some imagined 'anti-American' bias on the part the person
    > saying it.

Airlines & airport security has made it clear for several years that
joking or remarking about bombs can have drastic consequences. Ever seen
"Meet the Parents" where the main character was arrested for this reason?
It was released in 2000, a year before the attacks.

--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

What can you tell me about it, other than the surroundings?
"Desmond Coughlan" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > le Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:31:07 GMT, dans l'article
, David Carter
a dit ...
    > { snip rote moronic questions about Americans' safety }
    > > Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has
anyone
    > > stayed here, or know anyone who has?
    > Yeah, I know it. There's a mosque on either side of it.
    > Bon voyage.
    > --
    > Desmond Coughlan
    > desmond @ zeouane.org
    > http: // www . zeouane . org

BB wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > Airlines & airport security has made it clear for several years that
    > joking or remarking about bombs can have drastic consequences.

They have? Which specific airlines, and when and where did they say that?
Seems a bit drastic.

    > Ever
    > seen "Meet the Parents" where the main character was arrested for this
    > reason?

No. Is that a movie? Is it fiction or documentary?

    > It was released in 2000, a year before the attacks.

Regards

--
Puisqu'il faut choisir, àmots doux je peux le dire

In article , Derek McBryde
writes
    >The french are rude by nature, especially french waiters. In most
    >cases this is not aimed at the individual, they treat everyone foreign
    >like that. In Paris especially, folk can be a bit uppity and rude
    >even to other french people.

I have never found this to be true.
    >Rudeness might sometimes be inferred from the french lack of the
    >concept of "possibly". Everything is a stark Oui or Non which can
    >come across as a bit abrupt.

This is certainly untrue. A sweeping generalisation based on personal
experience.
    >I remember in US several years ago being affronted when a woman at the
    >checkout in a store said in a fairly strident voice (about me) "He's
    >next".

Then you are easily affronted.
    > In UK it would be more common to say "this gentleman's next"
    >or "this man's next". "He" is just too abrupt and sounded
    >derogatory.

Not to me.
    > However, I realised after hearing this expression a
    >few more times (not always about me) that this had become a normal
    >expression in US and that no rudeness was intended.

Took you some time, then.
    >I have had waiters in Paris play games with me. We were in a cafe
    >near to Montmartre and I ordered "quatre cafés au lait". The waiter
    >shouted to the back "Quatre cafés crémes". When it came to
    >ordering a refresh I thought I had made a mistake the first time and
    >ordered "Quatre cafés crémes". The waiter shouted to the back
    >"quatre cafés au lait". There was no subtlety about it and we saw
    >the joke. The waiter was actually quite a friendly guy and we got
    >good service.

They were good judges of your character.
    >So I wouldn't be too concerned about french rudeness. If anyone does
    >want to be rude, just ignore them or laugh it off. It's usually the
    >way one takes these things that is the problem, not the original
    >rudeness.
    >Usual rules of being a good tourist apply - "don't try to thrust your
    >country or politics down their throats. You have chosen to be a
    >guest in their country so be respectful of their views"

The French love political discussions.
    >Also don't use the quote I heard on the radio this afternoon - "God
    >bless the French. They are always there when they need you!"


Although you may use the words of Churchill.

"You can always depend on the Americans to do the right thing - when
they have exhausted all other possibilities."
--
Marie Lewis

David Carter wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    > I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    > telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    > anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    > for handling this treatment?
    > Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has anyone
    > stayed here, or know anyone who has?
    > Thanks
    > Dave
This old chestnut...the obvious answer is that they're not rude to
americans, they're rude to everyione.
In fact they are just differently polite. Its far too common for tourists
to assume that because local people don't use exactly the same rules of
politeness as they are used to at home, that they are being deliberatly
rude. Remember its a foreign country, they do things differently there -
after all, isn't that why you are going?

And what are you doing going to France at this time anyway, don't you know
there are gangs of peacemongers roaming the streets of paris routinely
attacking american tourists.

"Desmond Coughlan" wrote
    | he replied that he had been the victim of a vicious attack by a
    | 'little toerag' I raised my eyebrow and asked him what had
    | happened. He replied, 'A kid squirted a water pistol at me'.

I suppose it depends on what liquid was in the water-pistol.

Owain