"David Carter" wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
    > Hi all,
    > I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    > telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    > anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    > for handling this treatment?
    > Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has anyone
    > stayed here, or know anyone who has?
    > Thanks
    > Dave

My wife and I returned last Thursday from a trip to the Nederlands and
France. We did not experience any hostility or rudeness simply because we
were American. The most boorish behavior we experienced was at the security
checkpoint at MSP, in stark contrast to the professionalism we encountered
at the security checkpoints at AMS and NCE. You will most likely be treated
as you treat others, just like anybody else, regardless of nationality. Have
a great trip.

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:54:03 +0100, Wolfgang Schwanke
wrote:

    >BB wrote in
    >news:[email protected]:
    >> Airlines & airport security has made it clear for several years that
    >> joking or remarking about bombs can have drastic consequences.
    >They have? Which specific airlines, and when and where did they say that?
    >Seems a bit drastic.

In the U.S., this has been Federal law for many years, at least since
I began flying regularly (about 1990). You never joke about bombs,
hijacking, etc.


___________________________________________
Unit #02582: Endangered Old-Growth Redwood
Toothpick Artisans, LLC [TINEOGRTALLC]
--
Frivolity is a stern taskmaster.

le Tue, 04 Mar 2003 06:17:34 GMT, dans l'article , David Carter a dit ...

    > What can you tell me about it, other than the surroundings?

It's a while since I've been over there. The last time, I noted the marks
on the wall from the .50 calibre machinegun fire, after a couple of French
muslims found that there were two Americans staying in the hotel, and tried
to mount an assault on it. The authorities had put sawdust on the
pavement, to mop up the blood.

All in, best not to risk it, eh ? One just never knows, what with these
'rude, anti-American French'.

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

Dans l'article , "David
Carter" a écrit :


    > I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    > telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    > anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    > for handling this treatment?

Our latest experience with conversation with French people we don't know (as
opposed to those we do know who know we are not tourists) was at the Nemrod
Café in the 6th arrondissement last Saturday.

They admired our dachshund Gaston - who is certainly admirable, as those who
have met him know - and we got into conversation. They asked if we were
British. We said no, we are American. They then responded by telling us
that they live in Normandy, near the landing beaches. This in turn started
a discussion of the fine war museum in Caen, the Mémorial, which they have
visited often, as have we.

It was a very pleasant encounter, and there was no mention whatever of the
current political situation if that is what you are worried about.

Donna Evleth

Desmond Coughlan wrote in message news:...
    > le Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:54:44 GMT, dans l'article , Charles Hawtrey a dit ...
    >
    > >>Does
    > >>anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > >>targeted for poor treatment because of being an American?
    >
    > > A number of such incidents have been reported recently in the Wall
    > > Street Journal, the BBC, and other media. It's not clear whether
    > > these incidents are more common nowadays or simply more newsworthy.
    >
    > I have checked the BBC website [1], google [2], google news [3], the
    > website of _The Washington Post_ [4], that of the _New York Times_ [5], and
    > can find _no_ mention of an American having been involved in an 'incident'
    > in Paris, or indeed, anywhere in France.
    >
    > Please cite your source for the above allegation.
    >
    >
    > [1] url:http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=american+touri st+attacked+paris
    > [2] url:http://www.google.fr/search?q=%2Bamerican+%2Btourist+%2Battacked+%2Bpar is&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=fr&meta=
    > [3] url:http://news.google.fr/news?q=american+tourist+attacked+paris&hl=en&lr=&i e=UTF-8&sa=G&scoring=d
    > [4] url:http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=WP&p_theme=wpost&p_action=searc h&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0="american%20tourist%20attacked%20in%20Paris"&p_f ield_label-0=Section&s_dispstring=american%20tourist%20attack ed%20in%20Paris%20AND%20section(*)%20AND%20date(la st%20185%20days)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=-185qzD&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_d
te&xcal_useweights=no
    > [5] url:http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=american+tourist+attacked+paris&date=p ast30days&submit.x=7&submit.y=3


It has been in the Wall Street Journal at least 3 times in the last
month. They don't put all of their content on the web.

An American woman was beaten by Muslim youths when they found out she
was an American. She was sent to the hospital. The Wall Street
Journal said Germany, France, the UK were among the worst places they
visited with exceptions. The best place was Denmark.

You might want to avoid France.

le 4 Mar 2003 07:08:54 -0800, dans l'article , Johnny Hallyday a dit ...

{ snip }

    >> Please cite your source for the above allegation.

    > It has been in the Wall Street Journal at least 3 times in the last
    > month. They don't put all of their content on the web.

Ha, ha, ha !!!

    > An American woman was beaten by Muslim youths when they found out she was
    > an American.

Where did this happen ? Give us the name of a town, or a district if it
happened in Paris.

    > She was sent to the hospital.

Which hospital ?

    > The Wall Street Journal said Germany, France, the UK were among the worst
    > places they visited with exceptions. The best place was Denmark.
    >
    > You might want to avoid France.

I hope that _you_ avoid France. We shan't miss you.

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

le Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:15:39 +0000, dans l'article , Desmond Coughlan a dit ...

    >>> Please cite your source for the above allegation.

    >> It has been in the Wall Street Journal at least 3 times in the last
    >> month. They don't put all of their content on the web.

    > Ha, ha, ha !!!

Such an event would almost certainly have made it to google news. Here is
the result of a search for '+american +beaten +france +muslim' ...

url:http://news.google.fr/news?q=%2Bamerican+%2Bbeaten+%2Bfrance+%2Bmuslim&h l=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d&start=0&sa=N&filter=0

--
Desmond Coughlan
desmond @ zeouane.org
http: // www . zeouane . org

On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:01:47 +0000, Marie Lewis
wrote:


    >>In Paris especially, folk can be a bit uppity and rude
    >>even to other french people.
    >I have never found this to be true.

Me neither as I am not french. It was told to me by Parisiens and I
have no reason to doubt their word.

    >>Rudeness might sometimes be inferred from the french lack of the
    >>concept of "possibly". Everything is a stark Oui or Non which can
    >>come across as a bit abrupt.
    >This is certainly untrue. A sweeping generalisation based on personal
    >experience.

Sweeping generalisation I accept. One mustn't argue the general from
the particular.

I agree it is based on personal experience, which includes people from
a variety of regions and places like Marseilles, Cahors, Paris, Caen.
I am also taking the liberty of including the experience of friends
who have moved to live in Dordogne.

I have met french people who are the sweetest most polite people I
know. So I will rephrase " the french lack of" to "the lack in
some french people"

    >>I remember in US several years ago being affronted when a woman at the
    >>checkout in a store said in a fairly strident voice (about me) "He's
    >>next".
    >Then you are easily affronted.

Perhaps more aware of rudeness

    >> "He" is just too abrupt and sounded
    >>derogatory.
    >Not to me.

Were you there? Gosh I'm sorry. You should have introduced
yourself.

    >> However, I realised after hearing this expression a
    >>few more times (not always about me) that this had become a normal
    >>expression in US and that no rudeness was intended.
    >Took you some time, then.

Yes it did. I don't live in America so I don't keep up with the way
the American culture is changing. Also I don't hang around check
outs waiting for women to say "he's next".

    >>I have had waiters in Paris play games with me. We were in a cafe
    >>near to Montmartre and I ordered "quatre cafés au lait". The waiter
    >>shouted to the back "Quatre cafés crémes". When it came to
    >>ordering a refresh I thought I had made a mistake the first time and
    >>ordered "Quatre cafés crémes". The waiter shouted to the back
    >>"quatre cafés au lait". There was no subtlety about it and we saw
    >>the joke. The waiter was actually quite a friendly guy and we got
    >>good service.
    >They were good judges of your character.

Gosh were you there too? I never noticed you on that occasion
either.

    >>So I wouldn't be too concerned about french rudeness. If anyone does
    >>want to be rude, just ignore them or laugh it off. It's usually the
    >>way one takes these things that is the problem, not the original
    >>rudeness.
    >>Usual rules of being a good tourist apply - "don't try to thrust your
    >>country or politics down their throats. You have chosen to be a
    >>guest in their country so be respectful of their views"
    >The French love political discussions.

True. Good places to practice Oui and Non.
    >>Also don't use the quote I heard on the radio this afternoon - "God
    >>bless the French. They are always there when they need you!"
    >Although you may use the words of Churchill.
    >"You can always depend on the Americans to do the right thing - when
    >they have exhausted all other possibilities."

Thank you! However if you don't mind, I won't bother.

Derek.

Charles Hawtrey wrote:
    > "David Carter" wrote:

    > >Does
    > >anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > >targeted for poor treatment because of being an American?

    > A number of such incidents have been reported recently in the Wall
    > Street Journal, the BBC, and other media. It's not clear whether
    > these incidents are more common nowadays or simply more newsworthy.

Another problem is that it is seldom if ever clear that such incidents
are "because of being American". Very often it turns out to be the
case that people received "poor treatment because" they themselves
were rude and obnoxious, with their nationality having nothing to do
with it.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

    >Does
    >anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    >targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    >for handling this treatment?

I was hesitant about going to Paris three three summers ago because I had
always heard the typical "French people are rude" stories. Even going in with
that pessimistic attitude, I was very pleasantly surprised to find that Paris
was a wonderful city. We were treated just fine and thoroughly enjoyed our
stay. I'd go back anytime. Do remember that Paris in particular relies very
heavily on tourism, espeically from the United States (I swear there were more
Americans there than I usually see in Chicago), so it's in their interests to
treat people well.

In article ,
"David Carter" wrote:

    > Hi all,
    >
    > I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    > telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    > anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any suggestions
    > for handling this treatment?
    >
    > Also, I've made a reservation for Hotel Jarry, a budget hotel. Has anyone
    > stayed here, or know anyone who has?
    >
    > Thanks
    > Dave
    >
    >



There are rude people everywhere -- and one expects that America's
current behavior in the world is bound to elicit a little more than
usual.

You will find it if you look for it. In many trips to Paris, I have
only experienced real rudeness once. On several occasions we have
struggled with the odd rigidity of the French -- 'je suis desolet -- zat
would be impossible' --- but this rigidity [e.g. the inability to
understand that putting chocolate rather than coffee sauce on an ice
cream sunday should not require a court order] is a national trait --
not rudeness. [just remember many people find the chipper attitude of
American customer service people annoying -- to each his own]

In article ,
Desmond Coughlan wrote:

    > le Tue, 04 Mar 2003 01:54:44 GMT, dans l'article
    > , Charles Hawtrey a
    > dit ...
    >
    > >>Does
    > >>anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > >>targeted for poor treatment because of being an American?
    >
    > > A number of such incidents have been reported recently in the Wall
    > > Street Journal, the BBC, and other media. It's not clear whether
    > > these incidents are more common nowadays or simply more newsworthy.
    >
    > I have checked the BBC website [1], google [2], google news [3], the
    > website of _The Washington Post_ [4], that of the _New York Times_ [5], and
    > can find _no_ mention of an American having been involved in an 'incident'
    > in Paris, or indeed, anywhere in France.
    >
    > Please cite your source for the above allegation.
    >
    >
    > [1]
    > url:http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?scope=newsifs&tab=news&q=am
    > erican+tourist+attacked+paris
    > [2]
    > url:http://www.google.fr/search?q=%2Bamerican+%2Btourist+%2Battacked+%2Bpar is&
    > ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=fr&meta=
    > [3]
    > url:http://news.google.fr/news?q=american+tourist+attacked+paris&hl=en&lr=&i e=
    > UTF-8&sa=G&scoring=d
    > [4]
    > url:http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=WP&p_theme=wpost&p_
    > action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0="american%20tourist%20attacked%20i
    > n%20Paris"&p_field_label-0=Section&s_dispstring=american%20tourist%20attack ed%
    > 20in%20Paris%20AND%20section(*)%20AND%20date(last% 20185%20days)&p_field_date-0
    > =YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=-185qzD&p_perpage=10&p_sort=Y
    > MD_date&xcal_useweights=no
    > [5]
    > url:http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?query=american+tourist+attacked+pari
    > s&date=past30days&submit.x=7&submit.y=3


how about:


http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...4-overseas.htm

"Derek McBryde" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:31:07 GMT, "David Carter"
    > wrote:
    > >Hi all,
    > >
    > >I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has been
    > >telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > >bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though. Does
    > >anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > >targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any
suggestions
    > >for handling this treatment?
    > The french are rude by nature, especially french waiters. In most
    > cases this is not aimed at the individual, they treat everyone foreign
    > like that. In Paris especially, folk can be a bit uppity and rude
    > even to other french people.

You could substitute "New York" and New Yorkers" for "french" (sic) in the
above paragraph and it would make about as much sense. To the rest of the
country, New Yorkers have created that myth of rudeness and caustic
treatment toward others. It's like, there's NYC and then there's the rest
of the world. Feh.

    > Rudeness might sometimes be inferred from the french lack of the
    > concept of "possibly". Everything is a stark Oui or Non which can
    > come across as a bit abrupt.

Not sure if this was a joke or not. It never ceases to amaze me when an
untraveled person comes here looking for advice and gets treated like crap
for asking a simple question. In the USA, the French have suffered that
myth of anti-American rudeness for decades. I think it has more to do with
American tourists who expect foreign countries to be just like America.

"Da Parrot-chick" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Derek McBryde" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 23:31:07 GMT, "David Carter"
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > >Hi all,
    > > >
    > > >I leave for Paris thisWednesday. For the last few weeks my dad has
been
    > > >telling me how rude the French are, which I've just written talk as
    > > >bitter-old-guy talk. Lately it's started to make me think, though.
Does
    > > >anyone know of a specific recent incident where an American tourist was
    > > >targeted for poor treatment because of being an American? Any
    > suggestions
    > > >for handling this treatment?
    > >
    > > The french are rude by nature, especially french waiters. In most
    > > cases this is not aimed at the individual, they treat everyone foreign
    > > like that. In Paris especially, folk can be a bit uppity and rude
    > > even to other french people.
    > You could substitute "New York" and New Yorkers" for "french" (sic) in the
    > above paragraph and it would make about as much sense. To the rest of the
    > country, New Yorkers have created that myth of rudeness and caustic
    > treatment toward others. It's like, there's NYC and then there's the rest
    > of the world. Feh.

In fact you can substitute a lot of big cities in the world. For example,
Hong Kong definitely has that rude reputation. San Francisco too if you
talk to people from smaller cities. L.A. definitely.

    > > Rudeness might sometimes be inferred from the french lack of the
    > > concept of "possibly". Everything is a stark Oui or Non which can
    > > come across as a bit abrupt.
    > Not sure if this was a joke or not. It never ceases to amaze me when an
    > untraveled person comes here looking for advice and gets treated like crap
    > for asking a simple question. In the USA, the French have suffered that
    > myth of anti-American rudeness for decades. I think it has more to do
with
    > American tourists who expect foreign countries to be just like America.

"Charles Hawtrey" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:02:53 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
    > wrote:
    > >I have checked the BBC website [1], google [2], google news [3], the
    > >website of _The Washington Post_ [4], that of the _New York Times_ [5],
and
    > >can find _no_ mention of an American having been involved in an
'incident'
    > >in Paris, or indeed, anywhere in France.
    > It depends on what you mean by an "incident." Apparently all of your
    > searches (see below) included the word "attack." This seems a bit
    > extreme for the context in which the question was posed, i.e., a
    > discussion about rudeness. My interpretation of "targeted for poor
    > treatment" (their original wording) was something like a casual
    > slight, or maybe being given poor service. Not life-threatening
    > stuff, to be sure, but to my mind more in keeping with the original
    > context than an "attack." Your interpretation may (and apparently
    > does) differ.

So please point me to a couple of cites where these "incidents" were
reported in various world press.