On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:30:33 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:55:44 +0100, Tim C. <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Following up to Martin <[email protected]> :
>> >
>> >>It's about time they did something about drunken driving in Belgium.
>> >
>> >It should be made compulsory.
>>
>> It looks as if it already is..
>>
>> They might at least go home sober and not drink my good whisky, when I am
>not
>> looking.
>> Watch out for a mad Australian, who doesn't believe in paying to use
>motorways,
>> being pursued by the police of 7 countries.
>At least he won't be intoxicated.

or in possession of drugs.

>
>Maybe other drivers should watch out for the cops who may/will be!
>
>Gerrit :-) - who bought a vignet in Switzerland when he went there

and is still muttering about it :-)
--

Martin

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:32:22 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:11:36 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected].. .
>> >> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:31:56 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >BTW when I next come to Europe I intend to lease a car from CDG and
>drive
>> >to
>> >> >Vlissingen. The leased vehicle will be registered in my name and
>> >Australian
>> >> >address. Will the Belgians try to chase me for any fine if they catch
>me?
>> >>
>> >> Any unpaid fines will be paid by the leasing company, who will deduct
>them
>> >from
>> >> your credit card. Better not to incur a fine.
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >There is no mention of the leasing company on the registration papers of
>the
>> >leased cars you get from Renault.
>>
>> and the car is registered totally anonymously?
>>
>> >So the only address is mine here in Australia.
>>
>> Better believe it. I don't. :-)
>>
>> >Hence my question: will the Belgian authorities chase me all the way to
>Oz?
>>
>> Better stay at home and save them the trouble of killing you.
>> --
>>
>> Martin
>>
>
>I have leased on three different occasions and believe me the vehicle is
>registered in my name and with my address.

I don't see how it can be, you need to be a resident to have a car registered
exclusively in your name.
--

Martin

"gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of the EC
> is
>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one can
>> >complain.
>>
>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
> nothing for
>> using Belgian roads.
>> --
>>
>>
> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own bit
> and
> can benefit from others paying theirs.

ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.

But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon

tim

"tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>> >the EC
>> is
>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>> >can complain.
>>>
>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>> nothing for
>>> using Belgian roads.
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>> bit and
>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>
> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>
> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>

Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette system?

"mini Mini" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]. 54...
> "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>>> >the EC
>>> is
>>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>>> >can complain.
>>>>
>>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>>> nothing for
>>>> using Belgian roads.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>>> bit and
>>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>
>> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>>
>> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
>> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>>
>
> Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
> austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette system?

They can.

That's what I was saying

tim

>

On Jan 15, 11:53 am, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 15 Jan 2007 02:46:12 -0800, "J. Walker" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 15, 1:57 am, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:jvfkq29hmqtqkhsuc3elf0163tk0hpe5dt@4ax .com...
>
> >> > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of the EC
> >> is
> >> > >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
> >> > >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one can
> >> > >complain.
>
> >> > The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
> >> nothing for
> >> > using Belgian roads.
> >> > --And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
> >> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own bit and
> >> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>
> >> Gerrit
>
> >....unlike the farmers then.......and most others milking the EU cow.
> Why can't they subsidise the production of good quality beef?

....cos meat is murder.....

"tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in news:512d41F1ictbtU1
@mid.individual.net:

>
> "mini Mini" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]. 54...
>> "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>>>> >the EC
>>>> is
>>>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>>>> >can complain.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>>>> nothing for
>>>>> using Belgian roads.
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>>>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>>>> bit and
>>>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>>
>>> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>>>
>>> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
>>> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>>>
>>
>> Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
>> austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette
system?
>
> They can.
>
> That's what I was saying
>

Yes, I guess the part I don't understand is why "the house of cards will
start to tumble"? THere are some instances where tolls & vignettes just
don't make sense. I don't think the Dutch are going to introduce the same
system. They are just expressing sour grapes that they finally have to
pay (and we all know they don't like to pay ;o).

On 15 Jan 2007 21:13:31 +0100, mini Mini <[email protected]> wrote:

>"tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>>> >the EC
>>> is
>>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>>> >can complain.
>>>>
>>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>>> nothing for
>>>> using Belgian roads.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>>> bit and
>>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>
>> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>>
>> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
>> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>>
>
>Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
>austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette system?

Because for some reason the Dutch despise them. Something to do with the
Belgians having real supermarkets and the ability to cook and brew real beer
perhaps.
--

Martin

On 15 Jan 2007 14:23:47 -0800, "J. Walker" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>On Jan 15, 11:53 am, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 15 Jan 2007 02:46:12 -0800, "J. Walker" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jan 15, 1:57 am, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:jvfkq29hmqtqkhsuc3elf0163tk0hpe5dt@4ax .com...
>>
>> >> > On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> > >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of the EC
>> >> is
>> >> > >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>> >> > >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one can
>> >> > >complain.
>>
>> >> > The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>> >> nothing for
>> >> > using Belgian roads.
>> >> > --And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>> >> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own bit and
>> >> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>
>> >> Gerrit
>>
>> >....unlike the farmers then.......and most others milking the EU cow.
>> Why can't they subsidise the production of good quality beef?
>
>....cos meat is murder.....

pull the udder one and collect a subsidy.
--

Martin

On 15 Jan 2007 23:35:55 +0100, mini Mini <[email protected]> wrote:

>"tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in news:512d41F1ictbtU1
>@mid.individual.net:
>
>>
>> "mini Mini" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]. 54...
>>> "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>>>>> >the EC
>>>>> is
>>>>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>>>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>>>>> >can complain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>>>>> nothing for
>>>>>> using Belgian roads.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>>>>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>>>>> bit and
>>>>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>>>>
>>>> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
>>>> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
>>> austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette
>system?
>>
>> They can.
>>
>> That's what I was saying
>>
>
>Yes, I guess the part I don't understand is why "the house of cards will
>start to tumble"? THere are some instances where tolls & vignettes just
>don't make sense. I don't think the Dutch are going to introduce the same
>system. They are just expressing sour grapes that they finally have to
>pay (and we all know they don't like to pay ;o).

They are planning to impose pay as you drive motorway taxes that will make
everybody else's vignettes look like trivia. On the plus side they first planned
to do this 15 years ago.
--

Martin

"mini Mini" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]. 54...
> "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in news:512d41F1ictbtU1
> @mid.individual.net:
>
>>
>> "mini Mini" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]. 54...
>>> "tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>>>>> >the EC
>>>>> is
>>>>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>>>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>>>>> >can complain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>>>>> nothing for
>>>>>> using Belgian roads.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>>>>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>>>>> bit and
>>>>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>>>>
>>>> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
>>>> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
>>> austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette
> system?
>>
>> They can.
>>
>> That's what I was saying
>>
>
> Yes, I guess the part I don't understand is why "the house of cards will
> start to tumble"?

The more countries join the charging 'set' the less
incentive that there is for the others to remain free
so they will charge too.

> THere are some instances where tolls & vignettes just
> don't make sense.

ISTM that eventually everyone will have the 'satnav'
box in the car that charges by the mile.

Though possibly not for another 20 years

tim


> I don't think the Dutch are going to introduce the same
> system. They are just expressing sour grapes that they finally have to
> pay (and we all know they don't like to pay ;o).
>
>
>
>

"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On 15 Jan 2007 21:13:31 +0100, mini Mini <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"tim....." <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:20:40 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I thought I read somewhere that one of the guiding principles of
>>>>> >the EC
>>>> is
>>>>> >that access should be the same for each and every citizen.
>>>>> >So if the Belgians charge their citizens the same tax then no one
>>>>> >can complain.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Belgians pay for their roads with their road tax. The Dutch pay
>>>> nothing for
>>>>> using Belgian roads.
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> And the Germans pay nothing for using Dutch roads.
>>>> That's the whole thing about being in a community. You pay your own
>>>> bit and
>>>> can benefit from others paying theirs.
>>>
>>> ISTM that this fine whilst everybody plays by these rules.
>>>
>>> But Belgium will not be the first country to opt out.
>>> You can expect the house of cards to start tumbling soon
>>>
>>
>>Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
>>austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette system?
>
> Because for some reason the Dutch despise them. Something to do with the
> Belgians having real supermarkets and the ability to cook and brew real
> beer
> perhaps.

I must say that I quite liked the Dutch supermarkets.

So much better than the German ones.

tim

"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:32:22 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >I have leased on three different occasions and believe me the vehicle is
> >registered in my name and with my address.
>
> I don't see how it can be, you need to be a resident to have a car
registered
> exclusively in your name.
> --
>

Courtesy the French government who allow non European residents to buy/lease
a brand new car "TAX FREE"

The cost is much less than renting from sharks like AVIS and HERZ but you do
have to lease for a minimum period.
Checkout: http://www.eurodrive.renault.com/cms/australie/

When I arrive I sign a Visa card slip for the total price of the car in case
I nick it.

The rego papers are only in my name.

I know you are now going to say that after such a low price I can afford the
60 Euro and you will be right.
My point was not to complain about the tax but to wonder how they can
enforce it. Maybe I was being a bit obtuse. :-)

Gerrit

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:09:05 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:32:22 +0900, "gerrit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I have leased on three different occasions and believe me the vehicle is
>> >registered in my name and with my address.
>>
>> I don't see how it can be, you need to be a resident to have a car
>registered
>> exclusively in your name.
>> --
>>
>
>Courtesy the French government who allow non European residents to buy/lease
>a brand new car "TAX FREE"
>
>The cost is much less than renting from sharks like AVIS and HERZ but you do
>have to lease for a minimum period.
>Checkout: http://www.eurodrive.renault.com/cms/australie/
>
>When I arrive I sign a Visa card slip for the total price of the car in case
>I nick it.

What about insurance? Which country is it issued for?

>
>The rego papers are only in my name.
>
>I know you are now going to say that after such a low price I can afford the
>60 Euro and you will be right.

I wasn't, but you have a good point. :-)

If you are going to Vlissingen it will be cheaper to go back to Belgium when you
need to fill up your tank.

>My point was not to complain about the tax but to wonder how they can
>enforce it. Maybe I was being a bit obtuse. :-)

Is something similar in Oz? Car hire was the main cost of our last holiday in
Oz. About half the hire charge was insurance.
--

Martin

"Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On 15 Jan 2007 21:13:31 +0100, mini Mini <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Ok, I'm confused. If the french & italians have toll roads & the
> >austrians have vignettes, why can't the belgians have a vignette system?
>
> Because for some reason the Dutch despise them. Something to do with the
> Belgians having real supermarkets and the ability to cook and brew real
beer
> perhaps.
> --
>
I gather the difference is that in France and Italy as in Switzerland the
charge is only for actual use of the toll roads/motorway system.
If you don't use these you don't have to pay/buy a vignet.
In Belgium the proposed system will be for all roads so users cannot opt
out.

Gerrit