Le Fri, 25 Oct 2002 02:51:13 +0000, Stacy Shinsel a écrit :

    >> A friend informs me that a lot of courses in Dutch universities are
    >> now
    >> taught in English. I, even as a native English speaker, consider this
    >> an abomination, and a subjugation of Dutch culture to English (read
    >> 'American') culture. I certainly hope and pray that France does
    >> not go down
    >> the same road. Not because of any airy-fairy 'anti-American'
    >> views, but
    >> because I believe that a people's identity is closely tied to its
    >> language,
    >> and to its culture. The world may be shrinking economically,
    >> but not all
    >> of us think that globalisation is a 'Good Thing', and I hope that
    >> even fewer
    >> of us want to see English imposed everywhere, simply because its most
    >> powerful speaker, is also its richest.

    > Will wonders never cease? This is actually something you and I can agree
    > on, Desmond!

Oh, Gawd ... erm, can I change my mind ? ;-)

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

I know, I know, it scared the hell out of me, too.

    > However, if
    > macho -> failure
    > then it _does_ follow that
    > success -> non-macho (=wimpiness ?)
    > and therefore the conclusion still follows.

Greg,
er thanks for that (I think) - I wish I was such a clear thinker. :-)
Tim.

    > > Real men don't have to strut like insecure
    > > schoolboys. Real men don't need to hate and put down women to
    > > feel like real men.....

Real men don't eat quiche, either.
(remember that book?)

    > > > ...and your point is?
    > > And YOUR point is ?
    > Perhaps you should go back and read my post again. I feel my point was
    > very clear. I'm truly not trying to be snotty or sarcastic here, so
    > perhaps if you read it again, you'll see my point. If not, I'll be
    > glad to clarify.

I read your post and I'm sorry, but I really don't get any more that an
implied stroppy huff. "...and your point is?" still is, despite numerous
readings antagonistic. Just like my post was (deliberately).
He was making an observation, which doesn't always need a point. Oblio was
wrong.
Tim.

    > I have read this thread with much amusement and angst. how are AMericans
    > viewed in France, why ask? The fact that America is ooked at as some sort
    > of enfant terrible irresistaqble and detestable at the same time is really
    > irrelevant if one is asking as a prospective tourist, for one will find a
    > warm and gracious welcome, inviting you to indulge in all that France has
    > to offer and asking only for respect in return.
    > How are Americans viewed in France, ask a cynic and you will find "fools
    > with money" ask me, an Americna, and I will say with warmth and
enthusiasm.
    > If you really want to know, go there and find out for your self, but be
    > warned people there will be like people whereever you are, if you are open
    > to them at home they will be open to you as a guest. . . .

Thank goodness. Someone who hasn't lost sight of the woods.
Tim.

Jenn wrote:
    > greg byshenk wrote:
    > > Jenn wrote:

    > > > I agree that the post is silly -- but WHY is it that the French seem so
    > > > terribly insecure that they must be snotty towards anyone or any culture
    > > > different than themselves? It is something of a national habit. The
    > > > usual interpretation of that kind of highly defensive behavior is that
    > > > jealousy is involved -- if not that -- then why is it that the French
    > > > are so defensive?

    > > I agree that the post is silly -- but WHY is it that Americans seem so
    > > terribly insecure that they must be snotty towards anyone or any culture
    > > different than themselves? It is something of a national habit. The
    > > usual interpretation of that kind of highly defensive behavior is that
    > > jealousy is involved -- if not that -- then why is it that Americans are
    > > so defensive?

    > well aren't you adorable -- can you make the distinction between
    > responding when attacked from simply generalized unprovoked snotting?
    > There, I thought you could.

Interestingly, I've spent a fair amount of time in France, and can't
say that I've ever experienced -- or even witnessed -- "generalized
unprovoked snotting" from French people. _Provoked_ snotting, yes
-- but you've ruled that out of the equation.

On the other hand, I've often seen "generalized unprovoked snotting"
from Americans.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

"Tim Challenger" a écrit dans le message
de news: [email protected] ekom.at...

    > Macho -> failure
    > Wimpiness = non-macho
    > therefore: Wimpiness->success
    > USA is successful := 'muricans are wimps ?

Somewhat of an oversimplification, but nevertheless largely correct.

The world is run by "wimps," not Rambos or Terminators. Only macho men
think that being called "wimpy" is insulting, and what they think doesn't
really matter much, since macho men typically never amount to anything.
They do make good bricklayers and quarry workers, though, and they are
excellent and expendable cannon fodder in wartime.

"Jenn" a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...

    > ... macho is actually a weakness sign, not a
    > sign of strength. Real men don't have to strut
    > like insecure schoolboys.

Exactly. In fact, machismo makes macho men so fragile that they are
vulnerable to all sorts of attacks that would leave "wimps" unscathed. For
example, a macho man's ego can be very readily manipulated until he commits
suicide, and historically this has actually been done on multiple occasions.
Macho men are slaves to their emotions, and anyone who can manipulate their
emotions (very easy to do, for people who are governed by intellect
themselves) can rule them effortlessly.

    > And of course there is some truth that the countries
    > which lag behind on almost every dimension are those
    > with macho cultures which discriminate against half
    > their populations -- and thereby forego the full
    > contributions that half of their populations might
    > provide.

Correct. One of the best ways to bring a nation out of poverty and control
its population is to thoroughly educate its women and integrate them into
the governing mainstream of society. But macho countries refuse to do that,
and so they remain poor (and often become overpopulated as well).

"Luca Logi" a écrit dans le message de news:
1fkkhrl.u25nxtid3oz3N%[email protected]...

    > Tell it to the US steel industry :-)

The U.S. steel industry has had the same problems, and has responded
ineffectually in the same ways.

Padraig Breathnach schreef in artikel
...
    > Desmond Coughlan wrote:
    > >A friend informs me that a lot of courses in Dutch universities are now
    > >taught in English. I, even as a native English speaker, consider this
    > >an abomination, and a subjugation of Dutch culture to English (read
    > >'American') culture.
    > >
    > I suspect that this should be a case of "read 'English' ". I am told
    > by Dutch people that a major source of their English-language
    > competence is that they receive and watch a lot of British (read
    > 'English') television.

Most Dutch cable networks include the two main BBC channels. However, Dutch
(especially commercial) TV airs a lot of American shows, so I'm not sure
you could say the the average Dutchman watches more British TV than
American TV.

    > Insofar as the accents and usages of Dutch people indicate from whom
    > they acquired their English, I hear more English influence than
    > American.

I suspect this has more to do with British English being taught in school
than with influence from TV.

Regards,
David

Which is interesting since the highest per capita income exists in
Switzerland, which has long denied women the full range of rights. In
certain cantons they didnt even get the vote until 1975. Even now
school hours, shop opening hours and pay disparities all discourage
women from working and making a full contribution (sic).

I don't really follow this dicussion. Macho is pretty useful if you're
conducting guerilla war or sending your out your Special Forces.

In terms of government, strong posturing leaders alternate with those
with a more considered softly softly approach. Which GW is, is
anyone's guess. He's just confused :-)
Dave



    > real men. And of course there is some truth that the countries which
    > lag behind on almost every dimension are those with macho cultures which
    > discriminate against half their populations -- and thereby forego the
    > full contributions that half of their populations might provide.

Irony, right ? Ever watched a group of German males on holiday ? The
word was invented for them. The Dutch are worse, but they don't even
buy the drinks.

Dave


    > In article ,
    > "Tim Challenger" wrote:
    > > > The Dutch are much more successful in business. Germanic countries in
    > > > general are more successful, in part no doubt because they are less prone
    > to
    > > > machismo, which cripples every country in which it exists.
    > >

Ok, guess I'll try to explain. In my original post, I was pointing out that stereotypes are usually held by uneducated people ignorant of other cultures and languages...very often those who have travelled very little, or not at all, to foreign countries. I said that travel is the best educator (thereby allowing people to become more familiar with other cultures and not judging out of ignorance). Desmond did not respond with any comments other than to list more stereotypes, which I took to be rather sarcastic. I was asking what point he was trying to make, because I didn't get it. I was not trying to be nasty. I guess it's easy to misinterpret a typed reply when one cannot hear the tone of voice.

Mxsmanic wrote:

    > I hardly note any French people on newsgroups, period. They are twenty
    > years behind the times with respect to cyberspace, and most of them are
    > probably still playing around on the Minitel rose. (No, I'm not joking.)

Maybe they avoid the newsgroups where you hang out. An enviable talent.