Tim Challenger wrote:
    >> IME, regardless of ethnic origin, most Europeans appreciate any tourist
    >> with Euros in his/her pocket.
    > Um, most European hoteliers/shopkeepers.....I would say.

Don't forget pickpockets.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world:
http://travel.u.nu
New mini photo-feature: Life in DC:
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"Tim Challenger" a écrit dans le message
de news: [email protected] ekom.at...

    > Probably true, but that's not to say they're
    > envious of the US.

Many probably aren't, but many certainly are. I've definitely seen it in
France.

[QUOTE][SIZE=1]Originally posted by Vinaigrette:
Also spracht ""Mxsmanic" "on Sun, 6 Oct 2002
13:22:25 +0200:

I really don't think they are jealous of Americans at all. They are quite happy as they are.

Everyone can BUY whatever they want. I assume we are talking about material things here.

In article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

    > "Tim Challenger" a écrit dans le message
    > de news: [email protected] ekom.at...
    > > Probably true, but that's not to say they're
    > > envious of the US.
    > Many probably aren't, but many certainly are. I've definitely seen it in
    > France.

The ones that don't invite you to formal meals?

Bob

--
The restaurant of the brand-new Ritz Carlton hotel in downtown New York City
employs what it believes is the world's first water steward, to recommend which
bottled waters from its collection go best with which fancy dishes.

Bring on the locusts................

I noticed there were some animosity in general toward the Americans.
That is normal, I guess. As their economy further worsen, more and more
French develop xenophobia...including anti American sentiment. I also
notice American media portait French in a very unfavorable light as
compared to British. and the French saw that too.

What the European pickpocketers view of American tourist? Carry a lot
of money.

vinaigrette wrote:
    > Also spracht ""Mxsmanic" "on Sun, 6 Oct 2002
    > 13:22:25 +0200:
    >>Currently French attitudes towards Americans individually are highly
    >>favorable. They are envious of the material success of the United States
    >>and resent its policies at times, but they bear no animosity towards
    >>individual Americans.
    >>Those visiting Normandy and similar areas will receive an especially warm
    >>welcome, as people there have not forgotten WWII (even though it has been
    >>more than half a century!).
    > Do you really think the French are envious of our material success? I
    > have always had the impression that they find our material success
    > crass and tasteless. Of course they may just be defensive, but I don't
    > think so. As far as the French being favorable to us, I have found
    > tthem to be for the most part neutral. In fact, the French only seem
    > to care about their food and their football :- )

Mind if I try a little experiment:

"I noticed there were some animosity in general toward the French.
That is normal, I guess. As their economy further worsen, more and more
Americans develop xenophobia...including anti French sentiment."

The same thing works for all 'war on iraq' press releases by swapping 'Iraq'
and 'America'.

Funny world, isn't it?
---
DFM

Mike wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > I noticed there were some animosity in general toward the Americans.
    > That is normal, I guess. As their economy further worsen, more and more
    > French develop xenophobia...including anti American sentiment. I also
    > notice American media portait French in a very unfavorable light as
    > compared to British. and the French saw that too.
    > What the European pickpocketers view of American tourist? Carry a lot
    > of money.
    > vinaigrette wrote:
    > > Also spracht ""Mxsmanic" "on Sun, 6 Oct 2002
    > > 13:22:25 +0200:
    > >
    > >
    > >>Currently French attitudes towards Americans individually are highly
    > >>favorable. They are envious of the material success of the United
States
    > >>and resent its policies at times, but they bear no animosity towards
    > >>individual Americans.
    > >>
    > >>Those visiting Normandy and similar areas will receive an especially
warm
    > >>welcome, as people there have not forgotten WWII (even though it has
been
    > >>more than half a century!).
    > >>
    > >
    > > Do you really think the French are envious of our material success? I
    > > have always had the impression that they find our material success
    > > crass and tasteless. Of course they may just be defensive, but I don't
    > > think so. As far as the French being favorable to us, I have found
    > > tthem to be for the most part neutral. In fact, the French only seem
    > > to care about their food and their football :- )

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message news:...
    > "Mika" a écrit dans le message de news:
    > [email protected]...
    > > Where do you travel to find a European that
    > > is "envious" of the material success of
    > > the US? Fredonia perhaps?
    > Much of Europe is in this category, even much of Western Europe. Countries
    > such as Ireland, Portugal, Greece, and even the UK and France have generally
    > lower levels of material wealth than the U.S. Large-scale socialism is
    > responsible for much of this, as far as I can tell (the effects of the wars
    > wore off long ago).

A lot of places in Europe have had only about 50 years to accumulate
wealth, since the war wiped out a lot of what prior wealth there was.
And where in Europe do you find "large-scale socialism" nowadays?
Unless any government to the left of US Republicans is to be
considered socialist.
    > There are a handful of exceptions. Germans seem to be doing well, for
    > example, and the Germanic countries in general seem to maintain higher
    > standards of wealth.

Germany still has a Social Democrat/Green government (yeah!!!). And
economically it never made much difference whether the gov was
conservative or leftist. And nowadays everybody tries real hard to be
centrist anyway. Germany was kick-started right after the Morgenthau
plan was shelved, as much of the industrial base and the know-how was
still there.

    > Latin countries are crippled to some extent by
    > machismo and the petty dishonesty and self-centeredness that goes along with
    > it.

And Spain and Portugal were anything but Socialist before they were
considered to be eligible for the EU - or the then EC. But then they
were very successful under leftist governments. It is a myth that a
rightist government is always "good" for business.

M

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message news:...
    > "Tim Challenger" a écrit dans le message
    > de news: [email protected] ekom.at...
    > > Probably true, but that's not to say they're
    > > envious of the US.
    > Many probably aren't, but many certainly are. I've definitely seen it in
    > France.

And they express their "envy" exactly how?

M

dans l'article [email protected], Mxsmanic ÃÂ
[email protected] a écrit le 7/10/02 3:23 :

    >> Do you really think the French are envious
    >> of our material success?
    > Absolutely, although their Catholic tradition forbids them from showing this
    > unambiguously (in Roman Catholicism, one cannot be holy and rich at the same
    > time, unless one is a member of the clergy).

The jealousy factor is two ways. The French have long vacations
and work a shorter work year than Americans. They get their
legal 5 weeks when they start to work, not after years with the company.

As an American (naturalized French) living in Paris 25 years I have noted
more jealousy on the vacation issue by Americans than the French jealousy of
the American higher standard of living. That latter quantity is easy to
measure in per capital GNP terms but nobody has quantified "quality of
life". The French will often enough speak of profiting from life as a main
goal. Naturally they too would also like to make more money so that they
can do that, or retire early. In a certain sense Americans are more
"materialistic" but the French are more "hedonistic". Both behaviors are
not spiritual however and in a certain sense converge on self-centeredness.

I do think that many French know how to get along on less without it
bothering their sense of self esteem. The social system is more likely
to come to their aid if they are in real difficulty than in America. Also
the blame of being poor tends to be directed towards society in France
and towards oneself in America. Guilt is a big factor in American behavior.
The French have less problem with guilt.

Earl

We are all hampered, no matter what our nationality, by learned stereotypes of other people and cultures. The snobby, xenophobic French; the war-mongering Hun; the lazy, but oh so charming, Italian; the stick up his butt Brit; and the crass, pompous, overbearing, ain't I wonderful American. These stereotypes are generally held by people with little education or foreign travel experience (or just plain stupid). Personally, I believe the more you know about the people of different countries, their history, culture, language, etc. the less the stereotypes endure. Travel is the best educator!

Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:33:07 +0200, Earl Evleth a écrit :

    >>> Do you really think the French are envious
    >>> of our material success?

    >> Absolutely, although their Catholic tradition forbids them from showing this
    >> unambiguously (in Roman Catholicism, one cannot be holy and rich at the same
    >> time, unless one is a member of the clergy).

*guffaw*

Every now and then, I try to remember why mxsmanic is in my killfile. Then
I read statement of _towering_ imbecility such as the above, and I wonder
no more.

The French are jealous of the Americans' material success, but cannot
show it, as, '... their Catholic tradition forbids them' ? Oh Jesus, I'm
shaking in my chair with laughter.

The French are 'jealous' of murder rates in some cities that are higher
than entire European nations. The French are 'jealous' of a medical
system which invented the 'wallet bypass', where you're thrown out on the
street after an accident, if the doctor can't find your medicare card. The
French are 'jealous' of workers who have to work over 80 hours a week, and
sometimes take a second job, to pay off their debts. The French are
'jealous' of workers who get a third week's paid holiday, after twenty
years in the same job.

Really, I'm ROTFLMAO !!!! Jesus, someone get me a glass of water ...

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

In article ,
Desmond Coughlan wrote:

    > Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:33:07 +0200, Earl Evleth a écrit
    > :
    > >>> Do you really think the French are envious
    > >>> of our material success?
    > >> Absolutely, although their Catholic tradition forbids them from showing
    > >> this
    > >> unambiguously (in Roman Catholicism, one cannot be holy and rich at the
    > >> same
    > >> time, unless one is a member of the clergy).
    > *guffaw*
    > Every now and then, I try to remember why mxsmanic is in my killfile. Then
    > I read statement of _towering_ imbecility such as the above, and I wonder
    > no more.
    > The French are jealous of the Americans' material success, but cannot
    > show it, as, '... their Catholic tradition forbids them' ? Oh Jesus, I'm
    > shaking in my chair with laughter.
    > The French are 'jealous' of murder rates in some cities that are higher
    > than entire European nations. The French are 'jealous' of a medical
    > system which invented the 'wallet bypass', where you're thrown out on the
    > street after an accident, if the doctor can't find your medicare card. The
    > French are 'jealous' of workers who have to work over 80 hours a week, and
    > sometimes take a second job, to pay off their debts. The French are
    > 'jealous' of workers who get a third week's paid holiday, after twenty
    > years in the same job.
    > Really, I'm ROTFLMAO !!!! Jesus, someone get me a glass of water ...


I agree that the post is silly -- but WHY is it that the French seem so
terribly insecure that they must be snotty towards anyone or any culture
different than themselves? It is something of a national habit. The
usual interpretation of that kind of highly defensive behavior is that
jealousy is involved -- if not that -- then why is it that the French
are so defensive?

Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:20:12 +0000, Stacy Shinsel a écrit :

    > We are all hampered, no matter what our nationality, by learned
    > stereotypes of other people and cultures. The snobby, xenophobic French;
    > the war-mongering Hun; the lazy, but oh so charming, Italian; the stick
    > up his butt Brit; and the crass, pompous, overbearing, ain't I wonderful
    > American. These stereotypes are generally held by people with little
    > education or foreign travel experience (or just plain stupid).
    > Personally, I believe the more you know about the people of different
    > countries, their history, culture, language, etc. the less the
    > stereotypes endure. Travel is the best educator!


You forgot to mention a couple of points. Namely that the French all
smell of garlic, and wear striped T-shirts and berets, and have strings
of onions around their necks, as they ride bicycles up and down the
countryside. All Germans smell of sausage, drive Mercedes, and permanently
stick their right arms out of the sunroof in a Nazi salute, whilst crying,
'Ve haf vays of making you talk !!' Then there's the Italian whose hands
never stop moving, who eats pasta every day, and who cries 'Mamma Mia !!'
every five seconds. Not forgetting the Brit who wears a bowler hat, carries
an umbrella, and whose answer to every question is, 'I say !' Or the Scot
who's permanently drunk, wears a kilt and can't stop singing, 'Och Aye
Ra'Noo!' ... then there's the Irishman who lives on Guinness, and whose
first words when he wakes up, are 'Top o' the mornin' to you !!' ...


--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org

Le Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:57:05 -0500, Jenn a écrit :

{ snip }

    >> The French are 'jealous' of murder rates in some cities that are higher
    >> than entire European nations. The French are 'jealous' of a medical
    >> system which invented the 'wallet bypass', where you're thrown out on the
    >> street after an accident, if the doctor can't find your medicare card. The
    >> French are 'jealous' of workers who have to work over 80 hours a week, and
    >> sometimes take a second job, to pay off their debts. The French are
    >> 'jealous' of workers who get a third week's paid holiday, after twenty
    >> years in the same job.
    >> Really, I'm ROTFLMAO !!!! Jesus, someone get me a glass of water ...

    > I agree that the post is silly -- but WHY is it that the French seem so
    > terribly insecure that they must be snotty towards anyone or any culture
    > different than themselves? It is something of a national habit. The
    > usual interpretation of that kind of highly defensive behavior is that
    > jealousy is involved -- if not that -- then why is it that the French
    > are so defensive?

You are working with old stereotypes. The French are not insecure. I'd
even say that we have a rather high opinion of our standing in the world.
An opinion that isn't _always_ borne out by fact.

Nor do I note any French people going onto US newsgroups, specifically
to poke fun at the United States. Lord knows, we'd be spoilt for subject
matter, if we did. However, I estimate that around 90% of the posts
made to news:soc.culture.french, are by
Americans, and their posts are
divided more or less equally into:

i) France lost the war
ii) French people stink
iii) France is anti-Semitic
iv) The French don't want to help 'America' (sic)
v) French cheeses stink

You get any number of variations on these themes. For example, you'll
get a smart poster, who'll mention the anti-Semitic angle, just after
posting an article about desecration of Jewish graves. So the natural
'shock' that one feels, tends to make us less likely to notice the
childish 'My First Troll, by Dwain (12) from Texas' angle behind it. Or
a poster will provide a link to a site 'proving' that Iraq is planning
to drop its first nuclear bomb in Paris, and that the 'stinky French'
are 'too busy eating cheese' and 'surrendering' to the 'Nazi's' (sic),
to help 'America' (sic).

But the five main points rarely vary. That the 'surrendering' jibe should
come up so often is surprising, especially coming from a nation that has
_never_ won a war on its own. That France should be called anti-Semitic,
when maybe one or two Jews have been killed in France these past two years,
compared to several hundred in Israel, is laughable.

So you'll forgive me my lack of patience with such morons.

--
Desmond Coughlan |****#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org