UK - Underrated Kingdom?
Oct 8th 2008, 6:49 pm
#31
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 25
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
Exactly. My parents think all of England is "going to pot", basically because house prices are falling and that most things are more expensive there than in BC. But I see different. Heinz Spaghetti Hoops for instance, lovely with Waffles! But I cannot get Waffles here, and Spaghetti hoops are 55p/tin in England. Here they're $2.57!!! (The Equivalent of £1.24/tin)
I love England. I'm neutral about Canada. Canada is doing wonderfully (at the moment), but my parents always discuss the bad things about England and refuse to even hear any good things about England. As they say: "You never know what you've got 'till it's gone", and I quite agree with that. I thought that Canada would be something similar to England, with similar food and at least an accessible transport network, but I found almost the complete opposite when I arrived. I expected lovely Waffles and Beans for dinner that night when I arrived in Canada all the way back in 2004, but I found there are no Waffles and the beans here are absolutely disgusting!!! For the last year and a half now I have had to import 24 tins of Baked Beans at a time!!!
I think England/UK is extremely underrated, and it's high time we did something about it! But what am I doing? I'm sitting here at school in the library typing this when I should be doing something! Starting next week, I will have a job, and I'm going to save up $4,000/£2,000 so I can either come to England on my own for a holiday or for an exchange trip. I don't care what it takes! I'm coming home!!!
I'm one of the few extremely patriotic Englishmen around!!!
I love England. I'm neutral about Canada. Canada is doing wonderfully (at the moment), but my parents always discuss the bad things about England and refuse to even hear any good things about England. As they say: "You never know what you've got 'till it's gone", and I quite agree with that. I thought that Canada would be something similar to England, with similar food and at least an accessible transport network, but I found almost the complete opposite when I arrived. I expected lovely Waffles and Beans for dinner that night when I arrived in Canada all the way back in 2004, but I found there are no Waffles and the beans here are absolutely disgusting!!! For the last year and a half now I have had to import 24 tins of Baked Beans at a time!!!
I think England/UK is extremely underrated, and it's high time we did something about it! But what am I doing? I'm sitting here at school in the library typing this when I should be doing something! Starting next week, I will have a job, and I'm going to save up $4,000/£2,000 so I can either come to England on my own for a holiday or for an exchange trip. I don't care what it takes! I'm coming home!!!
I'm one of the few extremely patriotic Englishmen around!!!
Last edited by Hertford; Oct 8th 2008 at 6:55 pm.
Oct 8th 2008, 9:08 pm
#32
Banned
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: AUCKLAND
Posts: 146
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
Does anyone agree that it's become almost a bit daring to suggest that, whilst you love Australia, Canada, America or wherever it is you think you like the UK better?
It's become the established, accepted view that the UK is basically crap and if you've got the opportunity to live elsewhere then you should seize it with both hands. I think that this is especially true when the comparison being made is UK to Australia, because the Australians don't really respect the British and the UK in the same way that the North Americans do. Obviously that's my opinion but I think I have a fair point. They tend to assume that Australia is, well, perfect and has everything you could ever want whereas the Americans and Canadians, whilst they are generally patriotic and proud of their respective countries, can usually see the charm and beauty of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. I sometimes think that perhaps the Australians NEED to believe that Australia is great cos they're such a long way from anywhere else and they have a bit of an inferiority complex based on their history as a penal colony and relative lack of cultural contribution.
In general though I find that when you say 'actually, do you know what, I really miss the UK and I think I prefer it's country pubs, old buildings, humour and easy access to genuine diversity' people act like you're a bit nuts, like you've merely forgotten that the UK is crap. After all, everybody knows that, don't they? My Australian wife can't help but rush to the defense of Australia if I do so much as suggest that the Radio stations are better in the UK (which they clearly are).
Do the Aussies not see how tiring their relentless defense of Australia gets?
The Brits need to learn to be as proud of the UK as all these other countries are of themselves. We need to be prepared to defend the UK rather than mindlessly agreeing with every negative stereotype and generalisation that gets bandied about.
It's become the established, accepted view that the UK is basically crap and if you've got the opportunity to live elsewhere then you should seize it with both hands. I think that this is especially true when the comparison being made is UK to Australia, because the Australians don't really respect the British and the UK in the same way that the North Americans do. Obviously that's my opinion but I think I have a fair point. They tend to assume that Australia is, well, perfect and has everything you could ever want whereas the Americans and Canadians, whilst they are generally patriotic and proud of their respective countries, can usually see the charm and beauty of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. I sometimes think that perhaps the Australians NEED to believe that Australia is great cos they're such a long way from anywhere else and they have a bit of an inferiority complex based on their history as a penal colony and relative lack of cultural contribution.
In general though I find that when you say 'actually, do you know what, I really miss the UK and I think I prefer it's country pubs, old buildings, humour and easy access to genuine diversity' people act like you're a bit nuts, like you've merely forgotten that the UK is crap. After all, everybody knows that, don't they? My Australian wife can't help but rush to the defense of Australia if I do so much as suggest that the Radio stations are better in the UK (which they clearly are).
Do the Aussies not see how tiring their relentless defense of Australia gets?
The Brits need to learn to be as proud of the UK as all these other countries are of themselves. We need to be prepared to defend the UK rather than mindlessly agreeing with every negative stereotype and generalisation that gets bandied about.
Great point,
The Brits have lost that patriotism.
By comparison, here in NZ the Kiwis are what I call “blind patriots”, that is, they love New Zealand and do not enjoy ANYTHING that would indicate that New Zealand could be better IF ….
The crazy thing is that most of these “blind patriots” live on pretend farms living what is hyped here as “lifestyle” and most of them have never been as far as the other island of New Zealand and spend most of their days in wellies.
I find there is a lot of resentment here towards immigrants and it just makes life difficult.
It is difficult to stand there and listen to know-it-all Kiwis (or otherwise) spouting their according to “The Kiwi Way” and deep down you know that they are still living in the dark ages.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". ................Ben Franklin
Oct 9th 2008, 2:08 am
#33
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Westernport Mornington Peninsula
Posts: 1,761
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
I wonder why people have to ask others or tell others about liking not liking where they live it always comes across to be that they are seeking others approval.
If I was unhappy here in Aus, would not have time to post I would be too busy making arrangements to go wherever I had decided to go.
If my husband had liked it here and I absolutely hated it no way would I have stayed I would have up sticks and returned and put it down to experience, sad that we had the difference but better than making two lives miserable whinging about it.
I think women are the most unhappy my mother convinced me for most of my childhood that living in the UK was so great until she returned to live there and hated it and left again. You see the family had moved on the friends had moved on, very pleased to see her but only initially they went back to their lives and were not terribly interested anymore.
If I was unhappy here in Aus, would not have time to post I would be too busy making arrangements to go wherever I had decided to go.
If my husband had liked it here and I absolutely hated it no way would I have stayed I would have up sticks and returned and put it down to experience, sad that we had the difference but better than making two lives miserable whinging about it.
I think women are the most unhappy my mother convinced me for most of my childhood that living in the UK was so great until she returned to live there and hated it and left again. You see the family had moved on the friends had moved on, very pleased to see her but only initially they went back to their lives and were not terribly interested anymore.
Oct 9th 2008, 2:12 am
#34
I don't give a damn
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: In the arms of my family. Heaven...
Posts: 4,980
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
I wonder why people have to ask others or tell others about liking not liking where they live it always comes across to be that they are seeking others approval.
If I was unhappy here in Aus, would not have time to post I would be too busy making arrangements to go wherever I had decided to go.
If my husband had liked it here and I absolutely hated it no way would I have stayed I would have up sticks and returned and put it down to experience, sad that we had the difference but better than making two lives miserable whinging about it.
I think women are the most unhappy my mother convinced me for most of my childhood that living in the UK was so great until she returned to live there and hated it and left again. You see the family had moved on the friends had moved on, very pleased to see her but only initially they went back to their lives and were not terribly interested anymore.
If I was unhappy here in Aus, would not have time to post I would be too busy making arrangements to go wherever I had decided to go.
If my husband had liked it here and I absolutely hated it no way would I have stayed I would have up sticks and returned and put it down to experience, sad that we had the difference but better than making two lives miserable whinging about it.
I think women are the most unhappy my mother convinced me for most of my childhood that living in the UK was so great until she returned to live there and hated it and left again. You see the family had moved on the friends had moved on, very pleased to see her but only initially they went back to their lives and were not terribly interested anymore.
And if i were your husband i wouldnt be very impressed at your caring sharing attitudes towards his wants and needs
Oct 9th 2008, 6:01 am
#35
Just Joined
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
It is refreshing to read all of these posts.
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders
). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.
The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders
). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
Oct 9th 2008, 6:13 am
#36
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Still in Cyprus, for now!
Posts: 395
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
Pride - well there is something new!
If everyone was proud of the UK, then i think a lot more people would speak differently.
The thing is, people in the UK, don't believe that there is anything to be proud off, which, is sad.
As we have all said on this thread (well most of us!), you can't see how good the UK is until you live outside of it.
I know there are a lucky few (lobby) that have moved and have had a really good experience, but they far outweigh those longing to go back.
If everyone was proud of the UK, then i think a lot more people would speak differently.
The thing is, people in the UK, don't believe that there is anything to be proud off, which, is sad.
As we have all said on this thread (well most of us!), you can't see how good the UK is until you live outside of it.
I know there are a lucky few (lobby) that have moved and have had a really good experience, but they far outweigh those longing to go back.
Oct 9th 2008, 6:18 am
#37
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 508
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
I think a bit of self denigration has always been part of British culture and humour, but I'm sure a lot of the current negativity is the result of a deliberate attempt to destroy the sense of British identity by successive governments paving the way for full integration under a United States of Europe government. I believe Heath finally admitted that he mislead the electorate about the "benefits" of joining the (then) Common Market, and that the blueprint for full political and economic unification was already on the table, in secret of course. After all, the state knows what's best for the people and will do whatever is necessary to bring it about, even if the ungrateful voters don't want it.
Oct 9th 2008, 1:50 pm
#38
Account Closed
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 460
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
Around 5 years ago my sort of work partner (building) was leaving for Spain and he always said how much he hated Britain and that it was going to the dog's. It got very heated between us and I would always defend Britain and always will. I also used to hear customers moan about Britain and again would be quick to fire up. I have moved to Australia and I actually do like the fact the Aussies have pride in their country, it can wear a bit thin what with "proudly made in Australia" e.t.c everywhere but surely that is better than the constant doom & gloomers you meet in the U.K. I honestly believe the U.K has lost it's way big time, I mean what do most people see the U.K as? We have lost our way and pander to the needs of every other culture or minority group while eroding Britishness. Many , many people want to leave the U.K and this may be misguided views but it must tell us something. Please don't think I am attacking Britain because I am not, it will always be my home but it really has lost it's way, if a cabbie flys a flag during the world cup he /she is told off, I mean come on where are people going to get inspired and patriotic with this sort of stuff going on.
A very proud Brit
A very proud Brit
Oct 9th 2008, 4:06 pm
#39
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 1,214
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
It is refreshing to read all of these posts.
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.
The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders
). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
where as in Canada, US, Germany, etc.. these organizations tend to have their own 'distinct' flags....?
Oct 9th 2008, 4:11 pm
#40
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Joined: Sep 2007
Location: NI (back from Toronto)
Posts: 3,409
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
Oct 9th 2008, 4:23 pm
#41
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Southwestern Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,902
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
It is refreshing to read all of these posts.
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.
The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders
). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
Yes, we should show our proud in our country; Great Britain.
As a Scot, I have to say we are just the same with the prevailing negative attitude towards our country ~ Scotland. I cringe every time my family back home in Scotland complains about anything and everything about Scotland. National pride should be put to the forefront, and I wholeheartedly agree that we need a leader that stands up for that patriotic pride that we should ALL be showing and feeling
I would definitely vote for someone that is proud of the country they hope to lead
Oct 9th 2008, 6:22 pm
#42
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 15,019
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
It is refreshing to read all of these posts.
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.
The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
It seems that the Brits, in particular the English, fall into the habit of putting their country down. It is unfashionable almost to say anything good about England, which is ridiculous.
I am so fed up of the prevailing attitude that if an English person takes any pride in their country they are being arrogant and insular Little Britons (or Englanders
). Any other nation can and they are being fiercely proud of their culture blah blah blah.The politician who actually stands up and endorses national pride will do pretty well. I'm surprised none of them pick up on this. They all play it safe and stay apologetic for our colonial past (another blah blah blah). Get over it and get on with it. We are going through a post-colonial phase that is pretty unsettling. Ultimately it will be for the good but I do wish we could move on from it.
If you have lived and worked abroad you actually have a much better perspective on the UK than those people who live in the UK. There are a lot of very good things about the country. Personally I take a lot of pride in the good things about England.
Have a good day all, Leventissa
Oct 9th 2008, 8:28 pm
#43
Just hanging around
Joined: May 2008
Location: Back in England
Posts: 1,447
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
I do think it's part of the English character, and good in some ways, but that now it's hurting. It's seeing all sides of things. So I think few English would say, "England's the greatest country on earth" because they'd think, "That's daft. It's great, I love it, but there's all sorts of other countries and the people there probably think they're okay...."
But Americans will say, "America's the greatest country on earth," and mean it. Well, until recently, maybe, but I won't get political.
So will Canadians, but with a bit less blind fervor.
A relative did the "why come back here, it's awful" but corrected herself before I said anything. "Or that's what they say, but we're all fine, I must say and wouldn't want to leave."
Someone needs to start a challenge in Britain for people to list 10 things they love about the country. Perhaps people could start sticking them up all over the place so that everywhere anyone looked there'd be a list of great things about the country. Just turn the energy to the positive, instead of the negative.
As for flags, it's sad if the Union Jack has been highjacked, but what about the good old English flag. Hmm. That's sort of been highjacked by the Red Cross!
Okay, the Tudor Rose is apparently the heraldic symbol of England. What about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_rose
I'm going to see if I can make it my avatar.
Bev
Bev
But Americans will say, "America's the greatest country on earth," and mean it. Well, until recently, maybe, but I won't get political.
So will Canadians, but with a bit less blind fervor.
A relative did the "why come back here, it's awful" but corrected herself before I said anything. "Or that's what they say, but we're all fine, I must say and wouldn't want to leave."
Someone needs to start a challenge in Britain for people to list 10 things they love about the country. Perhaps people could start sticking them up all over the place so that everywhere anyone looked there'd be a list of great things about the country. Just turn the energy to the positive, instead of the negative.
As for flags, it's sad if the Union Jack has been highjacked, but what about the good old English flag. Hmm. That's sort of been highjacked by the Red Cross!
Okay, the Tudor Rose is apparently the heraldic symbol of England. What about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_rose
I'm going to see if I can make it my avatar.
Bev
Bev
Oct 9th 2008, 8:46 pm
#44
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Westernport Mornington Peninsula
Posts: 1,761
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
I think is sad even though we are now Australian Citizens we are proud to be British Australian Citizens. I think the political correctness in the UK has a lot to do with why people feel they have to be careful about their identity. In Aus we do too but not to the same extent and people will speak out.
My husband has a family tree going back to the 1700 in Scotland and mine goes back a long way too. My father was a war hero in the second world war he was with the Ghurkas and won the MM so we are very proud of his achievements for Britain.
More should be made of Brits and their heritage.
I knock people who move and whinge but I never knock people who never leave because if you are happy, have a home a good job do not mind the weather where else would you want to live.
I never had a choice I became a migrant due to my parents and my husband never liked the weather so that is why we live here.
If you have a choice think seriously about what you are giving up.
My husband has a family tree going back to the 1700 in Scotland and mine goes back a long way too. My father was a war hero in the second world war he was with the Ghurkas and won the MM so we are very proud of his achievements for Britain.
More should be made of Brits and their heritage.
I knock people who move and whinge but I never knock people who never leave because if you are happy, have a home a good job do not mind the weather where else would you want to live.
I never had a choice I became a migrant due to my parents and my husband never liked the weather so that is why we live here.
If you have a choice think seriously about what you are giving up.
Oct 10th 2008, 3:33 am
#45
Banned
Joined: Sep 2008
Location: AUCKLAND
Posts: 146
Re: UK - Underrated Kingdom?
I do think it's part of the English character, and good in some ways, but that now it's hurting. It's seeing all sides of things. So I think few English would say, "England's the greatest country on earth" because they'd think, "That's daft. It's great, I love it, but there's all sorts of other countries and the people there probably think they're okay...."
But Americans will say, "America's the greatest country on earth," and mean it. Well, until recently, maybe, but I won't get political.
So will Canadians, but with a bit less blind fervor.
A relative did the "why come back here, it's awful" but corrected herself before I said anything. "Or that's what they say, but we're all fine, I must say and wouldn't want to leave."
Someone needs to start a challenge in Britain for people to list 10 things they love about the country. Perhaps people could start sticking them up all over the place so that everywhere anyone looked there'd be a list of great things about the country. Just turn the energy to the positive, instead of the negative.
As for flags, it's sad if the Union Jack has been highjacked, but what about the good old English flag. Hmm. That's sort of been highjacked by the Red Cross!
Okay, the Tudor Rose is apparently the heraldic symbol of England. What about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_rose
I'm going to see if I can make it my avatar.
Bev
Bev
But Americans will say, "America's the greatest country on earth," and mean it. Well, until recently, maybe, but I won't get political.
So will Canadians, but with a bit less blind fervor.
A relative did the "why come back here, it's awful" but corrected herself before I said anything. "Or that's what they say, but we're all fine, I must say and wouldn't want to leave."
Someone needs to start a challenge in Britain for people to list 10 things they love about the country. Perhaps people could start sticking them up all over the place so that everywhere anyone looked there'd be a list of great things about the country. Just turn the energy to the positive, instead of the negative.
As for flags, it's sad if the Union Jack has been highjacked, but what about the good old English flag. Hmm. That's sort of been highjacked by the Red Cross!
Okay, the Tudor Rose is apparently the heraldic symbol of England. What about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudor_rose
I'm going to see if I can make it my avatar.
Bev
Bev