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UK General Election

Old Nov 7th 2019, 10:46 pm
  #136  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
Yes.
It isn't really a win/lose game, or it shouldn't be.

It is about asking the nation their wishes on a topic. However the topic and impacts should be made unemotionally, open, honestly and clear to those eligible to vote in a referendum otherwise how do they really know what they are actually voting about.

My beef was the campaigns and rhetoric. It was a referendum. Actual facts, figures and law should have been made plain.
Totally agree. Trouble is today the odd politician is prone to telling Porkies and lets not even start with social media or the print media.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 11:56 pm
  #137  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Same way a cabinet is formed now.

I suggest the PM is selected by majority 60%+ vote of elected MPs, subject to already having served at least 10 years as an MP to be able have gained experience of Parliamentary and government procedures...Cabinet Ministers would be other MPs with at least 5 years of MP service, nominated by the the PM and approved by Parliament....Ministers don't need to be specialists in their departments,
But that's not really the same as now is it. Not that there's anything wrong with doing it differently but if you're not going for 'specialist' or at least some level of expertise or even interest, then why not just a lucky dip?
they have the Civil Service for that same as now. What Ministers are for is to direct the CS as the government of the day instructs, and to take the blame when things go wrong.
Surely they have to know something about what they're in charge of. Yes Minister may have been fiction but those in the know all said it was fairly accurate.
And the absence of party politics in my suggestions mean there'll be more incentive to do the job properly.
And yet they were still nominated by the PM so there would still be 'favourites'.
There'd be no restrictions on MPs being party members, but the party would have no overt influence on an MPs duties.
So those MPs who are all members of the same party wouldn't all give their votes to someone they all aligned with then? Really?
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 1:54 am
  #138  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
I'm afraid that's EXACTLY how the parliamentary system works - you vote for the PERSON who will best represent you. Despite what the parties might have you believe, you do NOT vote for a party. So if, for example, you voted for a Remainer Tory MP, he or she is perfectly entitled to think that you supported his/her views, not necessarily the party views. Otherwise we might all as well vote for monkeys with rosettes.

The problem is that most Brits vote without thinking.
No I think thats just your personal opinion, thats not the way I have ever voted, I vote for the party I want to see in number 10, to be honest I think thats how most people vote, its pretty obvious why many people don't vote for independents, as its a wasted vote!

Many MPs have very little knowledge of the constiituency they represent! if you approve of a parliamentary system working in that manner we may aswell have 650 independant MPs all with their own agendas. Sounds organised.

And yes much of the public don't have a strong enough interest or opinion on politics, so they don't really know who or what they are voting for, its the same in Canada too, but thats just a fact of life always has been.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 2:23 am
  #139  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
No I think thats just your personal opinion, thats not the way I have ever voted, I vote for the party I want to see in number 10, to be honest I think thats how most people vote, its pretty obvious why many people don't vote for independents, as its a wasted vote!
That may be what you and many others vote for in General Elections, but the candaidate's name is above the party name on ballot papers. And which party they represent has little bearing on them actually doing constituency work such as meeting the public and dealing with local issues. In practice, whether they're Tory, Labour or anything else, that work still gets done in much the same way.

Which party they belong to doesn't come into it at local levels, but the party whose candidates win the post seats are the one chosen to form a government.

Many MPs have very little knowledge of the constiituency they represent! if you approve of a parliamentary system working in that manner we may aswell have 650 independant MPs all with their own agendas. Sounds organised.
If that's the case, why did they receive more votes than the other candidates. They don't all vote on party lines.

And yes much of the public don't have a strong enough interest or opinion on politics, so they don't really know who or what they are voting for, its the same in Canada too, but thats just a fact of life always has been.
That's down to a lack of political education, which has tended to be seen as encouraging liberals and communists.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 3:44 am
  #140  
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Default Re: UK General Election

In practice very few voters decide on personalities.
Ask anyone who they'll be voting for and it'll be Tory, Labour etc. It won't be for a name because very few take the trouble to remember who their candidates are.
You could have the angel Gabriel standing for parliament as a labour candidate in a safe tory seat like Devon East and he wouldn't rate a raised eyebrow. Likewise he could stand as a tory candidate in Bradford West and they'd send him home defeated with a hot vindaloo up his jacksee.
Like it or not that's how ordinary people approach elections.. but this election will be different and voters will align themselves with the party that represents how they feel about brexit so now's the time to see who the angel Gabriel's voting for, it'll indicate who god wants to win.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 5:50 am
  #141  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Well, they're not going to be disappointed in the options then......

The Brexit Party want to end it with a hard Brexit.
Boris wants to end it with his deal being accepted, or a hard Brexit.
Labour wants to end it by a public vote.
The Lib-Dems want to end it by revoking Article 50.

Any of those will break the Brexit bubble. Which way does your family member want it broken?
None of those possibilities will bring an end to the Brexit bubble. Whoever loses will blame the outcome for every problem in the UK for decades.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 6:31 am
  #142  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
I think it would be less divisive if it were not advisory but had a defined thresholds for being binding: e.g. 70% remain, give up on withdrawal forever. That's not easily framed though. A problem being that "remain" is clear cut while "leave" covers a multitude of sins. Offering specific choices "leave with May deal" "leave on WTA terms" "leave according to the Farage Fantasy" has the problem that few voters will take the time to understand the options and, anyway, they're not easily defined and some are plainly not going to happen (for example, anything written on a bus).
Remain can't reasonably be considered any more clear cut than leave. The remain vote in 1975 didn't provide any basis for public approval of any later treaties and basis for present EU membership.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 7:21 am
  #143  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
No I think thats just your personal opinion, thats not the way I have ever voted, I vote for the party I want to see in number 10, to be honest I think thats how most people vote, its pretty obvious why many people don't vote for independents, as its a wasted vote!

Many MPs have very little knowledge of the constiituency they represent! if you approve of a parliamentary system working in that manner we may aswell have 650 independant MPs all with their own agendas. Sounds organised.

And yes much of the public don't have a strong enough interest or opinion on politics, so they don't really know who or what they are voting for, its the same in Canada too, but thats just a fact of life always has been.
That's not my personal opinion, that's a fact about how parliamentary democracy works. That you interpret it otherwise is your failing. A very common failing, granted, and one that the parties do nothing to dissuade, but there you go. As I said before, by definition, half the population is below average intelligence, so no point learnin' them stuff if it suits you better to keep them dumb...
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 9:09 am
  #144  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by jimf View Post
The remain vote in 1975 didn't provide any basis for public approval of any later treaties and basis for present EU membership.
Actually it did, but many voters either didn't know (find out) what direction the European project was taking - or put their own spin on what it should be as opposed to what it would be. This is why UK style referenda are a bad idea!
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 11:02 am
  #145  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Expatrick View Post
Actually it did, but many voters either didn't know (find out) what direction the European project was taking - or put their own spin on what it should be as opposed to what it would be. This is why UK style referenda are a bad idea!
Exactly. The general public is politically ill-educated, and most of those that do have in interest in politics tend to be tribalist, voting for their party no mater what it does. The only things that change are the minority of swing voters in marginal seats, or if a party commits a big enough scandal.

Proportional Representation please!
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 3:08 pm
  #146  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
That's not my personal opinion, that's a fact about how parliamentary democracy works. That you interpret it otherwise is your failing. A very common failing, granted, and one that the parties do nothing to dissuade, but there you go. As I said before, by definition, half the population is below average intelligence, so no point learnin' them stuff if it suits you better to keep them dumb...
Doesn’t make any sense to me, why bother with political parties then?

I always like to look at the bigger picture, I have lots of friends with opposing political views, who have very good intentions for the local area, but if they were an MP I wouldn’t vote for them as I wouldn’t want their party governing the country…..to me the MP is not important. Its the Prime Minister and the cabinet that’s governing the country that matters to me, not some back bench MP who is going to have very little influence on decisions made in Parliament.

I do think that terming half the population as “below average intelligence” is a pretty elitist statement to make, It’s more likely that some of the population are uneducated in political matters, (as they probably have other priorities in their life) but not lacking intelligence, the two are very different.







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Old Nov 8th 2019, 3:48 pm
  #147  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by jimf View Post
Remain can't reasonably be considered any more clear cut than leave. The remain vote in 1975 didn't provide any basis for public approval of any later treaties and basis for present EU membership.
Remain might be interpreted as "all trade arrangements stay exactly as they are" with a possible addition of "we'll use our options within the EU structures to limit the immigration from troublesome countries". Either way, there's a very limited impact on what happens to the ordinary person in the UK.

Leave doesn't mean anything. It might mean a border down the Irish sea next year or it might not, Johnson doesn't know. It might mean a trade deal with the US but the US might not want one. It might mean that, after a year's negotiation the UK has roughly the same trade arrangement with the EU as now, or it might not. It's a pig in a poke offered to the public by a man saying it's a cow.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 3:50 pm
  #148  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
I do think that terming half the population as “below average intelligence” is a pretty elitist statement to make
Well not if one of us in the dimwitted half says it.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 5:18 pm
  #149  
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Default Re: UK General Election

On the BBC News this evening, there is a focus on the severe flooding in the Doncaster area due to torrential rain over a swathe of the UK over the last 24 hours.

Quote from a resident "I am sure that the local authority could have done more to prevent this".

So, there's your average voter.
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Old Nov 8th 2019, 5:22 pm
  #150  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
Well not if one of us in the dimwitted half says it.

Depends who is judging!
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