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UK General Election

Old Nov 7th 2019, 4:24 pm
  #106  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
I couldn't disagree more. The past couple of years have been an absolute triumph for parliamentary democracy... in other words, "taking back control".
I take it that the point you're making is that parliament has, for the short time it's happened, thrown aside the shackles imposed by party orders and started to think for themselves.
This would be a good thing but for the issue that they've also thrown aside the demonstrable wishes of their constituents as expressed in the 2016 referendum and opted to rule by personal diktat, almost verging on mob rule.
I'm no fan of the party system, but...
Q. Would you prefer a non-party aligned parliament, ie a parliament composed entirely of independent MPs?



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Old Nov 7th 2019, 4:26 pm
  #107  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty View Post
I couldn't disagree more. The past couple of years have been an absolute triumph for parliamentary democracy... in other words, "taking back control". It proves that 650 MPs cannot simply be whipped into accepting whatever the government wishes. This is because the MPs are voting for the best interests of ALL their constituents. Not just the ones who voted for them. Sometimes even against the ones who voted for them, but always with a view to what is in all of their best interests.

If you want to live in a country where the Party or Government wishes are absolute and sacrosanct, I suggest you try North Korea...
Thats not the way the British parlimentary system is supposed to work.... if we do what you are saying and take Parlimentary democracy to its extreme why bother with political parties at all? why not have 650 MPs with 650 agendas, we don't do that because it would be absolute anarchy..... no laws would ever be made or passed nothing would be accomplished.

Parlimentary democracy is all very well, but MPs surely must be united and loyal to their party....thats why their constituents voted for them? they voted for the political party not the MP? but I accept that some people don't vote that way. Personally I have never voted for my local MP and what he/she is going to do for me because thats selfish and narrow minded, I vote for the the government I want in number 10, I vote for the good of the country and what I think it needs, not for my personal needs. So I expect the MP I vote for to follow the party platform he is an MP for, not to vote for themselves personally.

The issue I see (and may I have it wrong here, as I don't see the full coverage of British politics anymore living in Canada and leading a very busy life) but the issue was when May called a general election to hopefully gain a bigger majortiy so she could easily get a Brexit deal through parliament.....what happened was she lost the majority and that totally screwed it all up, no one could agree on anything after that.... still not sure how she lost the majority when she was going up against Corbyn, who has to be the worst labour leader in history - a very deluded man.

Another general election was the right path to take I think, one way or another parliament needs a majority with in it to get anything accomplished.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 4:27 pm
  #108  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
I take it that the point you're making is that parliament has, for the short time it's happened, thrown aside the shackles imposed by party orders and started to think for themselves.
This would be a good thing but for the issue that they've also thrown aside the demonstrable wishes of their constituents as expressed in the 2016 referendum and opted to rule by personal diktat, almost verging on mob rule.
I'm no fan of the party system, but...
Q. Would you prefer a non-party aligned parliament, ie a parliament composed entirely of independent MPs?
EXACTLY!! and is also what I have also said in my reply
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 4:35 pm
  #109  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
This would be a good thing but for the issue that they've also thrown aside the demonstrable wishes of their constituents as expressed in the 2016 referendum
1. It was a marginal victory for leave, not a clear mandate.
2. It was a long time ago.
3. No one knew what they were voting for, or against. Probably not multiple years of haggling over duties and the breakup of the UK.

It's certainly arguable whether or not the referendum result represents the wishes of voters today.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 4:37 pm
  #110  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
no laws would ever be made or passed nothing would be accomplished.
Ideal. Government action invariably makes things worse for the public. Proportional Representation is very attractive in this regard.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:09 pm
  #111  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
...May called a general election to hopefully gain a bigger majortiy so she could easily get a Brexit deal through parliament.....what happened was she lost the majority and that totally screwed it all up
So aren't you asking yourself if that meant the electorate had a change of mind from 2016 then?
.. still not sure how she lost the majority when she was going up against Corbyn, who has to be the worst labour leader in history - a very deluded man.
And aren't you now asking yourself how Corbyn increased the Labour vote then? And that perhaps it's not so straightforward and that maybe there are significant parts of the electorate that disagree and are seeing beyond the scare tactics?

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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:21 pm
  #112  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
still not sure how she lost the majority when she was going up against Corbyn, who has to be the worst labour leader in history - a very deluded man.
Ah, you've fallen for the media and Blairite BS. I'm neither a Tory nor Labour voter, so have no dog in the fight, but there's always been an agenda to remove Corbyn as leader (he's won 3 leadership elections) by Tories and their pet media who know he's a threat to their chances, and by Blairites who believe another Blairite leader is their only way of taking office again. And some of those Blairites want to move the party into Tory-lite territory where they'll compete against the Lib-Dems while the Tories compete against the Brexit Party.

Labour is where it needs to be, with the leader they have. Give Corbyn a chance, and if Labour members want him gone, at least wait until next year's NEC. If Corbyn loses this election, it won't just be Corbyn's fault, but he'll be the only one blamed.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:43 pm
  #113  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
1. It was a marginal victory for leave, not a clear mandate.
2. It was a long time ago.
3. No one knew what they were voting for, or against. Probably not multiple years of haggling over duties and the breakup of the UK.
It's certainly arguable whether or not the referendum result represents the wishes of voters today.
Interesting arguments, but some that need clarity. You argue that...
1. Marginal victories should be ignored since they don't provide clear guidance.
Q. Does this mean that parliamentary bills that pass by a single vote should be ignored as being marginal?
2. Votes taken a long time ago should be ignored because, well they're old.
Q. Does this mean that parliamentary bills should die once they've passed a sell by date?
3. Votes should be ignored because it can be argued that voters are ignorant of the points voted on.
Q. Does this mean that most bills passed in government should be ignored because, as it happens, few MPs read the bills they vote on.
4. Votes should be ignored where it cannot be shown that they represent the current thinking of voters.
Q. Does this mean that ALL bills passed in parliament should be ignored because, without contemporary referenda, it can be argued that ALL fail the 'current thinking' test




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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:46 pm
  #114  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Interesting arguments, but some that need clarity. You argue that...
1. Marginal victories should be ignored since they don't provide clear guidance.
Q. Does this mean that parliamentary bills that pass by a single vote should be ignored as being marginal?
2. Votes taken a long time ago should be ignored because, well they're old.
Q. Does this mean that parliamentary bills should die once they've passed a sell by date?
3. Votes should be ignored because it can be argued that voters are ignorant of the points voted on.
Q. Does this mean that most bills passed in government should be ignored because, as it happens, few MPs read the bills they vote on.
4. Votes should be ignored where it cannot be shown that they represent the current thinking of voters.
Q. Does this mean that ALL bills passed in parliament should be ignored because, without contemporary referenda, it can be argued that ALL fail the 'current thinking' test
Oh dear. None of those were what dbd was suggesting.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:54 pm
  #115  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Interesting arguments, but some that need clarity. You argue that...
1. Marginal victories should be ignored since they don't provide clear guidance.
Q. Does this mean that parliamentary bills that pass by a single vote should be ignored as being marginal?
2. Votes taken a long time ago should be ignored because, well they're old.
Q. Does this mean that parliamentary bills should die once they've passed a sell by date?
3. Votes should be ignored because it can be argued that voters are ignorant of the points voted on.
Q. Does this mean that most bills passed in government should be ignored because, as it happens, few MPs read the bills they vote on.
4. Votes should be ignored where it cannot be shown that they represent the current thinking of voters.
Q. Does this mean that ALL bills passed in parliament should be ignored because, without contemporary referenda, it can be argued that ALL fail the 'current thinking' test
No. This means that the results of a referendum conducted long ago under different political conditions that did not produce a clear result cannot be taken as a reliable guide to the opinions of voters today.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:55 pm
  #116  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Oh dear. None of those were what dbd was suggesting.
Quite.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 5:56 pm
  #117  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Oh dear. None of those were what dbd was suggesting.
They're logical corollaries to the points raised.
When you question why some votes should be annulled it's logical to apply the same arguments to other situations to test their validity.
Not seen any cogent supporting argument yet.

Last edited by dave_j; Nov 7th 2019 at 6:10 pm.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 6:09 pm
  #118  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
Ideal. Government action invariably makes things worse for the public. Proportional Representation is very attractive in this regard.
I agree with regards to local government and government organisations....you can rely on the government to over complicate things. Parliament is a different scenario though


Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
So aren't you asking yourself if that meant the electorate had a change of mind from 2016 then?

And aren't you now asking yourself how Corbyn increased the Labour vote then? And that perhaps it's not so straightforward and that maybe there are significant parts of the electorate that disagree and are seeing beyond the scare tactics?
I don't understand what happened in the election after 2016, I am astounded as to why anyone would vote for Corbyn....even the most loyal of labour voters....so no idea how May lost the majority

Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee View Post
Ah, you've fallen for the media and Blairite BS. I'm neither a Tory nor Labour voter, so have no dog in the fight, but there's always been an agenda to remove Corbyn as leader (he's won 3 leadership elections) by Tories and their pet media who know he's a threat to their chances, and by Blairites who believe another Blairite leader is their only way of taking office again. And some of those Blairites want to move the party into Tory-lite territory where they'll compete against the Lib-Dems while the Tories compete against the Brexit Party.

Labour is where it needs to be, with the leader they have. Give Corbyn a chance, and if Labour members want him gone, at least wait until next year's NEC. If Corbyn loses this election, it won't just be Corbyn's fault, but he'll be the only one blamed.
Blair was full of BS we agree on that one! He was a prime example of the new modern politician, he and those types of politician are all about trying to make making a name for themselves and trying to satisfy everyones wish list to gain votes instead of focusing on what the country and its basic needs. .

I don't know why the Tories would think Corbyn is a threat to thier chances?? Labour with Corbyn at the helm are unelectable with his extreme socialist policies........I have never known any labour leader who is as delusional as he is, why on earth would anyone appoint Diane Abbot as shadow home secrertary....this compounds the fact that labour as they stand are simply unelectable.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 6:12 pm
  #119  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
They're logical corollaries to the points raised.
When you question why some votes should be annulled it's logical to apply the same arguments to other situations to test their validity.
The referendum issue is moot now. There's an election over Brexit. We may assume that, if there's a 99% Conservative vote, the public at large would like to leave. In the more likely case of there being no decisive majority we may suppose that the referendum result was accurate in showing that the GBP really doesn't know what to do. Massive changes bringing poverty and war really should not be made on the basis of the public not being sure whether or not that's what it wants.
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Old Nov 7th 2019, 6:33 pm
  #120  
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Default Re: UK General Election

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
I don't understand what happened in the election after 2016, I am astounded as to why anyone would vote for Corbyn....even the most loyal of labour voters....so no idea how May lost the majority
But would you not agree that if the idea behind that election was to make departure from the EU more straightforward and a lot more voters put their X against alternative parties than the previous time, there might just be a possibility that support for Brexit had been reduced, perhaps even reversed?

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