Re: UK election June 8
 

Imagine, imagine that somewhere out there in the Berlaymont building there are some who can think and act under influences other than testosterone.

Imagine, imagine that there are those in Whitehall that never went to Eton and can actually add 1 and 1 and care about getting the right answer and not about when they'll be getting their KCMGs.

Imagine, imagine that these two groups could sit around a a table in a pub or a bistro, have a few beers or wines and have the authority to hammer out a brexit agreement.

I suspect that an agreement acceptable to both could be arrived at before anyone has passed out from alcohol overload.

But it's a sad fact that imagination doesn't feature in any qualification required for both EU bureaucrat and Whitehall mandarin, thus the pandemic that's been diagnosed as EU virulent variant of Necrotising fasciitis will devour us all.

Re: UK election June 8
 

Imagine that, instead of the pissing contests and bun fights ahead. Oh well, nice thought

Re: UK election June 8
 

I read this last night and I had one (puzzled) reaction but I refrained from posting it.

This morning, I still have the same puzzled reaction. It's one thing to disagree with what someone says and think they argue their case well but it's surely quite different to think their thought process is 'better' in arriving at a position, contrary to your own, than your own thought process and those whom you agree with. It just doesn't seem logical.

I can't help thinking of the praise Mussolini got for "running the trains on time."

Re: UK election June 8
 

I don't think all these 'family' analogies are particularly helpful, tempting though they are to make.

I don't admire the Brexiteer mindset as I see it (from an economic perspective) as at best wishful, and at worst, reckless . However, from a societal perspective, if the majority want a different mix of immigrants or fewer immigrants, that is their democratic right. I suppose what annoys me is that in order to achieve the latter, they and Queen Theresa are ready to throw reason to the wind and bet the country on delusions of Empire 2.0.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-germany-eu-uk

Re: UK election June 8
 

Now there's an idea with an election coming up.

Change your name to Albert Mussolini, start a 'Make Commuting Great Again' party and stand for anywhere in the south east of England, a guaranteed win... just keep the saluting to a minimum.. and try to wear light coloured shirts.

Re: UK election June 8
 

I'm simply saying that I admire someone who wants to be free from 'oppression' no matter the cost, more than someone who cowers in a corner worrried about what the oppressor might do if they tried to leave. This is what it amounts to as far as I can see.

I'd rather not have to struggle if I were 25 and living in Britain, but If I thought a vast undemocratic entity was chipping away at my sovreignty, I may feel different. Perhaps a vote for Brexit was a vote against apathy, NOT a vote for fascism?? Imagine.

Re: UK election June 8
 

Since when has a post on this subject been remotely helpful or anything close to political engagement? The analogy is a good one, we've got EU - Dad, England - Mum, Northern Ireland - from a previous relationship, growing up and realising Dad's ok in spite of what Mum says. Scotland - Eldest, should have left home years ago but Mum's cooking is soooo good, and Wales, tries hard and his heart's in the right place, a good person.

What I find unhelpful is the likes of LePen, Farage, even Weelders in some cases, being shut down as racist when they're addressing some very real fears that people have. That's not helpful and it's not healthy in a modern society, as we've seen it creates an undercurrent of resentment that shows itself at the polling stations. Don't get me wrong, many of their other policies are reprehensible, but they're the only ones even pretending to address working class fears. I'll probably get spanked for this but them's the breaks I suppose

Re: UK election June 8
 

Presumably you have your reservations about Brexit for reasons other than worriedly cowering in a corner about what might happen. :unsure:

So why the assumption that other remainers are cowering in the corner? Maybe they have the same reservations as you and they are a bit fed up with arguing common sense and are, what's the expression, dumbing down? ;)

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Re: UK election June 8
 

You misunderstand me, the assumption of the cowering scaredy cat was in response to the widely held assumption that Brexit voters are racist fools. I happen to think neither are true. I think both views have their merits and drawbacks, but both have a habit having a dig at the other side's intelligence, which is utterly ridiculous, as is telling me that remainers have dumbed it down so Brexiters 'get it' .

Likewise the accusation of racism, it shuts down healthy debate, opinion polls mean nothing, and some are still surprised that in the privacy of the voting booth, people vote honestly and there's an 'upset'. I put the upset in inverted commas because they were only upsets to those too arrogant to take opposing views seriously.

Re: UK election June 8
 

+1

As I left home and made my way in the world, I noticed how some people lived and wondered how they managed to survive. It occurred to me then that the average MP was about as far removed from me as I was from those I'd witnessed and I concluded that politicians in general hadn't a clue how most people lived. They paid lip service to understanding but in reality their standards of living didn't allow them the understanding they claimed to have.

I would suggest that a similar argument can be made about the two brexit opposing camps. In particular the attitude of the remainers betrays a complete lack of appreciation of the brexit case for leaving the EU. The distribution of votes throughout England demonstrates this all too well. The sunny 'never had it so good and long may it continue' south east and the shire counties find it impossible to understand why anyone would want to leave the EU because their blinkered outlook sees only prosperity. They consequently consider brexiteers to be insane, deluded, racist or simply misled to think otherwise. They fail to grasp that there was a majority for whom Brussels and Westminster have not delivered streets paved with gold and saw little prospect of distant politicians caring about their plight.

Like it or not brexiteers were not racist or insane but identified one of the few instances when they could make themselves heard. General elections come and go but as an old truism related 'It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always gets in.'

Times might be better or worse in the future UK, we don't know at the moment because that page has yet to be written, but for the Tyneside shipwright or the Teesside steelworker who view silent and decaying factories they had their say and things will never be the same again.

Re: UK election June 8
 

Where do you get this bull**it notion that most Remainers think Brexiters are racist fools ??? I have not heard a single Remainer suggest such a description, it's nonsense that some people in the Brexit camp have dreamed up and keep hyping up like other anti-EU myths. It's true that some in UKIP had a few screws loose, but not all, and certainly not all Brexiters. It's also not true that politicians are "completely detached" most hold weekly surgeries and meet hundreds of constituents with all manner of social and financial/benefits problems. Most work hard to solve other people's problems. As for the disenfranchised folk up North (and on the South Coast for that matter) leaving the EU is not going to solve their problems. Britain is a mature economy, and structural issues will remain whomever is at the top table.

Re: UK election June 8
 

The Daily Beast

The Gaurdian

Even Billy (I've should of shut up in 1987) Bragg

University Tutor: Brexit public are “mindless, booing Little Englanders” – Westmonster

The media is replete with examples of this hackneyed accusation, by jingo, it's even been banded about on here.

Re: UK election June 8
 

I'm not sure I recognise a connection between my post and yours.

I didn't say that most remainers think brexiteers are racist fools. I gave but a few of the many views that remainers associate with brexiteers.

I still hold my view that most politicians can't grasp how many paople live. I take the point that they hold surgeries and work hard but these surgeries are simply windows into some lives, a window that closes when they go home. Their comfortable lives prevent them from experiencing and thus understanding first hand the difficulties they witness. For example, I doubt that few if any would have the skills to survive on a minimum wage, it's not their fault it's just that they live in a different world.

I take your point that leaving the EU won't solve the problems of the north, but that wasn't the point I was making. I was suggesting that those who voted brexit did so for a number of reasons, primarily among them was a feeling that change was needed and this was their oportunity to make a difference.

Re: UK election June 8
 

There always going to be a bit of name calling on both sides, but there's been very little public accusation that the Brexiters are "racist". Yet, time and again, Brexiters are claiming that they're being called "racist" by the other side. It simply isn't happening. Maybe in some tabloid headlines, or in a heated radio debate, but not as a general phenomenon. Plenty of Remainers had concerns on immigration too, and on the shortcomings of the EU/EC.

Re: UK election June 8
 

We need another Sex Pistols song. "I don't want a holiday in Tuscany, I wanna go down to Torquay . . la la la." ;)