Troy Davis execution
Sep 23rd 2011 | 2:44 am
#61
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,402
From: South of Calgary
Re: Troy Davis execution
This is the stuff that bothers me most about your posts. The options are presented as innocent or guilty. But I don't think anyone has suggested he's innocent. The reservations are about guilt. I'm not saying he's innocent. Something just doesn't look right and justice is supposed to be seen.
I understand that one of the issues is that they were illiterate and, therefore, couldn't undertand the statements they signed. They gave oral evidence at the Trial. Don't you think that defence counsel would have made a huge issue about this? Even though, he was convicted.
You keep saying that which is now being questioned has been examined on the appeals. But with many cases in England through all their appeals it was clear from the investigations made that those people were not guilty of the crimes yet all those judges and Home Secretaries refused to recognise it. Then one day they did.
If that can happen in the UK it can certainly happen in the US. And has.
The Death Penalty is a different issue. For now, though, I just think people would have been happy to have seen no execution while there are still doubts about more than 70% of the evidence used to convict him.
Is there no resource that you would trust to give you similar cause for concern rather than just assuming it's all been done as it should be?
The Death Penalty is a different issue. For now, though, I just think people would have been happy to have seen no execution while there are still doubts about more than 70% of the evidence used to convict him.
Is there no resource that you would trust to give you similar cause for concern rather than just assuming it's all been done as it should be?
Sep 23rd 2011 | 2:52 am
#62
Dive Bar Drunk
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,671
From: Toronto
Re: Troy Davis execution
So if no one is suggesting he is innocent and the death penalty is the appropriate sentence, what is the issue? I don't understand how one cannot be either guilty or innocent.
I don't know, I wasn't at the trial.
When did they do this; how did they do this? Why have they not been put on trial for perjury?
I understand that one of the issues is that they were illiterate and, therefore, couldn't undertand the statements they signed. They gave oral evidence at the Trial. Don't you think that defence counsel would have made a huge issue about this? Even though, he was convicted.
Precisely. I am not suggesting that those that made the decision as to whether the appeal should go ahead acted appropriately, as I have no idea, but, I am led to believe, numerous appeals did go ahead. You are, essentially, stating that the Appeal Courts made the wrong decision as well. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't.
I don't know, I wasn't at the trial.
When did they do this; how did they do this? Why have they not been put on trial for perjury?
I understand that one of the issues is that they were illiterate and, therefore, couldn't undertand the statements they signed. They gave oral evidence at the Trial. Don't you think that defence counsel would have made a huge issue about this? Even though, he was convicted.
Precisely. I am not suggesting that those that made the decision as to whether the appeal should go ahead acted appropriately, as I have no idea, but, I am led to believe, numerous appeals did go ahead. You are, essentially, stating that the Appeal Courts made the wrong decision as well. Maybe, just maybe, they didn't.
I blame the media.
Apparently a journalist in the Guardian has published ten reasons why this man should not have been given the death penalty, therefore we must now believe that the police in the US and their judicial and legal framework is incompetent.
Meanwhile in the UK they freed a guy long suspected and held for blowing up an aeroplane which was heralded by certain medias as rediculous.
In Italy an american girl who knifed another student, changed her story 5 times and had to retract lies in court is apparently innocent and the italian police and judicial system is incompetent. Again thanks to the media.........
Remember the murder in Bristol at the end of the last year. The poor landlord who was arrested and then hounded out of a place he had happily lived for 20or so years........
Sep 23rd 2011 | 3:17 am
#63
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: Troy Davis execution
I don't know, I wasn't at the trial.
When did they do this; how did they do this? Why have they not been put on trial for perjury?
And, no, that doesn't make me someone who doesn't believe in the moon landings or thinks 9/11 was perpetrated by the US government.
I understand that one of the issues is that they were illiterate and, therefore, couldn't undertand the statements they signed. They gave oral evidence at the Trial. Don't you think that defence counsel would have made a huge issue about this?
Threats have also been alleged.
You are, essentially, stating that the Appeal Courts made the wrong decision as well.
And wotsisname...the guy convicted of killing Jill Dando. He lost appeals too didn't he?
Those were all cases where not guilty or at least an unsafe verdict was screaming out at anyone reading the investigative reports after convictions. There were numerous appeals lost until eventually it was accepted the convictions were wrong.
This case looks similar.
Sep 24th 2011 | 6:23 am
#64
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Troy Davis execution
Whether Troy Davis was innocent or guilty is really not important, altohugh the appearance of injustice has focused attention on the death penalty once again. Im sure people can argue about his case indefinitely, but as far as the death penalty goes the execution of innocents, although a major problem, is not the central issue.
The central argument against the death penalty is that the governments should be defending the pillars of the UNs declaration on human rights, which include everyone having the right to life. E V E R Y O N E. Doensnt matter who you are, doesnt matter what you do, doesnt matter what you believe, you have the right to life, and governments have no right to be taking life away in cold blood.
Last edited by iaink; Sep 24th 2011 at 6:36 am.
Sep 24th 2011 | 6:41 am
#65
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,830
Re: Troy Davis execution
You don't think capital punishment is a bit extreme for speeding or drink driving?
Sep 24th 2011 | 9:47 am
#67
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Troy Davis execution
I have never suggested this.
I thought you were in the camp that, "All those that believe in deities are frothing loons." Why the reference to God?
Thank you for that advice. I can't quite believe it myself, but I have actually done what you suggested. It would appear from my review of what I have said, that my contributions can be summarized as follows:
a) The State is justified in executing some of its citizens - Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler and the like (posts 3, 30);
b) Unless one has read all of the evidence and the judgments of those that made the decisions (to ascertain why the decision was made and upon what authority) one cannot really comment with any form of authority about the decision (posts 9, 41);
c) Those that believe that the man is innocent or guilty based upon what they read online and without reviewing all of the evidence are naive (post 13);
d) I have no knowledge of the facts of this case or the process that has been worked through (posts 21, 25, 30 and 51);
e) Is it a moral question, or a legal one? (post 15);
f) Is the US Justice System inherently racist? (posts 15, 18 & 34);
g) One wrong conviction is one too many (post 18);
h) One assumes the decisions were made based upon the evidence presented to the arbiter (posts 22, 30, 34, 41, 43 & 49);
i) What other solutions are there? (post 22);
j) Is killing during a war justified? (post 43); and
k) Where have a been a fool and responding to insults thrown by other posters? (posts 46 & 52).
I appreciate that there were a number of overlaping posts and that, interspersed with the above, other comments were made. At no point have I expressed an opinion upon whether the executed man was innocent or guilty. I really don't care, I appreciate that others do.
I don't believe that any of my posts have been insulting or offensive.
I have looked in the mirror and I noted that I am still the same overweight, middle aged, white man that I was when I went to bed last night.
I was not invited to join this forum by you and, IIRC, I have had a single discussion behind the scenes with the moderaters since I joined this forum. If my memory serves me correctly, that was before I came to Canada, so, some time ago.
Having taken your advice on board, here is a little for you: You don't have to read my posts, you don't have to respond to them. If you find me offensive or insulting in any way, report me to the moderators and, if they agree with you, I am confident they will take it up with me.
This is not your forum and anyone is permitted to comment on it in any way they wish, provided they stay within the rules. If you believe I have broken any such rules, again, report me to the moderators.
This is not the first time it would appear that you have attempted to chase people from the forum and, in my most respectful submission, that demonstrates extreme arrogance on your part. Should you not be the type that wishes to use the appropriate channels to complain about others, I respectfully suggest that you use the "Ignore" button.
Wishing you a very good day
I thought you were in the camp that, "All those that believe in deities are frothing loons." Why the reference to God?
Thank you for that advice. I can't quite believe it myself, but I have actually done what you suggested. It would appear from my review of what I have said, that my contributions can be summarized as follows:
a) The State is justified in executing some of its citizens - Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler and the like (posts 3, 30);
b) Unless one has read all of the evidence and the judgments of those that made the decisions (to ascertain why the decision was made and upon what authority) one cannot really comment with any form of authority about the decision (posts 9, 41);
c) Those that believe that the man is innocent or guilty based upon what they read online and without reviewing all of the evidence are naive (post 13);
d) I have no knowledge of the facts of this case or the process that has been worked through (posts 21, 25, 30 and 51);
e) Is it a moral question, or a legal one? (post 15);
f) Is the US Justice System inherently racist? (posts 15, 18 & 34);
g) One wrong conviction is one too many (post 18);
h) One assumes the decisions were made based upon the evidence presented to the arbiter (posts 22, 30, 34, 41, 43 & 49);
i) What other solutions are there? (post 22);
j) Is killing during a war justified? (post 43); and
k) Where have a been a fool and responding to insults thrown by other posters? (posts 46 & 52).
I appreciate that there were a number of overlaping posts and that, interspersed with the above, other comments were made. At no point have I expressed an opinion upon whether the executed man was innocent or guilty. I really don't care, I appreciate that others do.
I don't believe that any of my posts have been insulting or offensive.
I have looked in the mirror and I noted that I am still the same overweight, middle aged, white man that I was when I went to bed last night.
I was not invited to join this forum by you and, IIRC, I have had a single discussion behind the scenes with the moderaters since I joined this forum. If my memory serves me correctly, that was before I came to Canada, so, some time ago.
Having taken your advice on board, here is a little for you: You don't have to read my posts, you don't have to respond to them. If you find me offensive or insulting in any way, report me to the moderators and, if they agree with you, I am confident they will take it up with me.
This is not your forum and anyone is permitted to comment on it in any way they wish, provided they stay within the rules. If you believe I have broken any such rules, again, report me to the moderators.
This is not the first time it would appear that you have attempted to chase people from the forum and, in my most respectful submission, that demonstrates extreme arrogance on your part. Should you not be the type that wishes to use the appropriate channels to complain about others, I respectfully suggest that you use the "Ignore" button.
Wishing you a very good day
Sep 29th 2011 | 4:29 am
#68
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 908
From: Loughborough, England, UK
Re: Troy Davis execution
Hi. I've been following this case closely for several weeks, and coincidentally have also been a member of British Expats for over a year (we are just emmigrating to Canada in the next few weeks) but didn't notice that this was being discussed here until now.
Let me first say that I am not a supporter of capital punishment and never will be. But casting that bias aside, I still believe that a gross miscarriage of justice has taken place with the execution of Troy Davis.
Let us examine the facts:
- Not a single trace of physical evidence linked Davis to the killing. No weapon, no fingerprints, no DNA. NOTHING
- The ONLY evidence to convict him was the testimony of eye-witnesses
- 7 of the 9 witnesses who claim to have seen Davis have since recanted their testimony, and many have said they were coerced by police into naming him
- Of the two remaining witnesses who did not recant their testimony, one was Sylvester Coles, who was another suspect in the case and who allegedly admitted to the killing at a party
- Three jurors have since signed affidavits stating that if they had been given all the information at the time, they would not have voted to convict
In the face of such doubt, in 2010 instead of ordering a re-trial in which the prosecutors of Troy Davis would once again be required to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that he was guilty, the US Supreme Court laughably conjured up an "innocence trial" in which Troy Davis was required to prove his innocence. The judge deemed he had not done so adequately.
So he was guilty until proven innocent, and was not proven innocent in the judge's eyes.
Let me please say that I do not wish to trivialise the terrible crime that happened in 1989 where the police officer was shot. Although I do not believe in the death sentence, I believe whoever committed the crime should remain behind bars for the rest of their lives.
And I am not in any way saying that I believe Troy Davis was definitely innocent. I am saying that I believe that there was sufficient reasonable doubt as to his guilt as to make an execution unthinkable EVEN IF I believed in capital punishment, which I do not.
Two things died last week. One was a human being called Troy Davis, the other was the American justice system.
Wayne.
Let me first say that I am not a supporter of capital punishment and never will be. But casting that bias aside, I still believe that a gross miscarriage of justice has taken place with the execution of Troy Davis.
Let us examine the facts:
- Not a single trace of physical evidence linked Davis to the killing. No weapon, no fingerprints, no DNA. NOTHING
- The ONLY evidence to convict him was the testimony of eye-witnesses
- 7 of the 9 witnesses who claim to have seen Davis have since recanted their testimony, and many have said they were coerced by police into naming him
- Of the two remaining witnesses who did not recant their testimony, one was Sylvester Coles, who was another suspect in the case and who allegedly admitted to the killing at a party
- Three jurors have since signed affidavits stating that if they had been given all the information at the time, they would not have voted to convict
In the face of such doubt, in 2010 instead of ordering a re-trial in which the prosecutors of Troy Davis would once again be required to prove BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT that he was guilty, the US Supreme Court laughably conjured up an "innocence trial" in which Troy Davis was required to prove his innocence. The judge deemed he had not done so adequately.
So he was guilty until proven innocent, and was not proven innocent in the judge's eyes.
Let me please say that I do not wish to trivialise the terrible crime that happened in 1989 where the police officer was shot. Although I do not believe in the death sentence, I believe whoever committed the crime should remain behind bars for the rest of their lives.
And I am not in any way saying that I believe Troy Davis was definitely innocent. I am saying that I believe that there was sufficient reasonable doubt as to his guilt as to make an execution unthinkable EVEN IF I believed in capital punishment, which I do not.
Two things died last week. One was a human being called Troy Davis, the other was the American justice system.
Wayne.
Sep 29th 2011 | 8:11 am
#69
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,423
From: 9 years in the canadian trucking industry... Niverville MB
Re: Troy Davis execution
Sep 29th 2011 | 8:37 am
#70
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,016
From: Langley, BC
Re: Troy Davis execution
There have been too many incidents where Capital Punishment was used on people who were later proved to be innocent.
Sep 29th 2011 | 8:42 am
#72
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 12,830
Re: Troy Davis execution
Sep 29th 2011 | 8:47 am
#74
Moderαtor Emeritus
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,771
From: Upstate South Carolina
Re: Troy Davis execution
I agree with you that killing or maiming someone if you are drunk in a car is treated far too leniently, or the charges get watered down for an easier conviction when what it really is is vehicular manslaughter, which should carry more severe penalties anyway. They were sober when they started the chain of events after all, there's no excuse.
Sep 29th 2011 | 9:00 am
#75
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,423
From: 9 years in the canadian trucking industry... Niverville MB
Re: Troy Davis execution
I think he was referring to someone doing 100 in an 80 zone, or getting caught at a ride check, but I could be wrong.
I agree with you that killing or maiming someone if you are drunk in a car is treated far too leniently, or the charges get watered down for an easier conviction when what it really is is vehicular manslaughter, which should carry more severe penalties anyway. They were sober when they started the chain of events after all, there's no excuse.
I agree with you that killing or maiming someone if you are drunk in a car is treated far too leniently, or the charges get watered down for an easier conviction when what it really is is vehicular manslaughter, which should carry more severe penalties anyway. They were sober when they started the chain of events after all, there's no excuse.
If I decide to nullify my senses and get drunk knowing its against the law and drive over your head that should also be murder.
