Please explain to me what I have said that is foolish. What actual evidence have you read?

I'm not suggesting the due processes were not followed. This is precisely what makes the whole situation more disturbing. In spite of the undoubted extent of doubt in the case (seriously, a lowly commentator I may be but it's evident from what we do know that the conviction was shaky at best i.e. bullying) that there's no way this man could be executed. No way! There's no reverse gear at this stage.

Let me ask you: are you comfortable with the idea that this man should've been executed last night based on what you now understand having read the details in this thread or through other links (no physical evidence, no DNA etc etc) I'm not talking about quashing the conviction outright, but actually not taking the time to pause and reflect on what's emerged in the past 20 years?

Pretend you're an SC judge and give me your answer.

I'm not prepared to waste my time on you.. fool. End of.

It would appear that it has been looked at more than twice

I am not dismissing anything. Like I have said time and time again, the evidence was reviewed, a number of decisions were made. The decisions didn't meet with your approval. So what?

I find it amazing that you believe that said journalists managed to turn up evidence that either wasn't found by his lawyers at any time, or was not provided to his lawyers by the journalists - bastards, letting an innocent man die.

So now judges look at things like politicians do. Are you seriously arguing this? In fact, don't answer that, I really don't care. Keep fighting.

Just give me the answer to my question AC. What's stopping you?

I haven't read any of the evidence so I am not in a position to state what decision I would have made. You need to review all of the evidence and then confirm the decision you would have made. I really don't care, I really don't.

DNA evidence is a recent tool. Are you suggesting that all convictions obtained prior to its invention are suspect?

Thank you. You have shown why you will never be responsible for making such decisions. You have failed to put forward any sensible argument and resort to calling names.

Ok, read the following and tell me - from a lawyer's perspective, because you are one - whether you're comfortable that this man died last night:



Ed Pilkington in Jackson, Georgia
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 21 September 2011 19.04 BST
Article history

Troy Davis on death row in Georgia, where he faces execution by lethal injection. Photographs: Gettty Images
In 2007 the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles, the body which has the final say in the state on whether executions should go ahead, made a solemn promise. Troy Davis, the prisoner who is scheduled to die by lethal injection at 7pm local time on Wednesday, would never be put to death unless there was "no doubt" about his guilt.

Here are 10 reasons why the board – which decided on Tuesday to allow the execution to go ahead – has failed to deliver on its promise and why a man who is very possibly innocent will be killed in the name of American justice.

1. Of the nine witnesses who appeared at Davis's 1991 trial who said they had seen Davis beating up a homeless man in a dispute over a bottle of beer and then shooting to death a police officer, Mark MacPhail, who was acting as a good samaritan, seven have since recanted their evidence.

2. One of those who recanted, Antoine Williams, subsequently revealed they had no idea who shot the officer and that they were illiterate – meaning they could not read the police statements that they had signed at the time of the murder in 1989. Others said they had falsely testified that they had overheard Davis confess to the murder.

3. Many of those who retracted their evidence said that they had been cajoled by police into testifying against Davis. Some said they had been threatened with being put on trial themselves if they did not co-operate.

4. Of the two of the nine key witnesses who have not changed their story publicly, one has kept silent for the past 20 years and refuses to talk, and the other is Sylvester Coles. Coles was the man who first came forward to police and implicated Davis as the killer. But over the past 20 years evidence has grown that Coles himself may be the gunman and that he was fingering Davis to save his own skin.

5. In total, nine people have come forward with evidence that implicates Coles. Most recently, on Monday the George Board of Pardons and Paroles heard from Quiana Glover who told the panel that in June 2009 she had heard Coles, who had been drinking heavily, confess to the murder of MacPhail.

6. Apart from the witness evidence, most of which has since been cast into doubt, there was no forensic evidence gathered that links Davis to the killing.

7. In particular, there is no DNA evidence of any sort. The human rights group the Constitution Project points out that three-quarters of those prisoners who have been exonerated and declared innocent in the US were convicted at least in part on the basis of faulty eyewitness testimony.

8. No gun was ever found connected to the murder. Coles later admitted that he owned the same type of .38-calibre gun that had delivered the fatal bullets, but that he had given it away to another man earlier on the night of the shooting.

9. Higher courts in the US have repeatedly refused to grant Davis a retrial on the grounds that he had failed to "prove his innocence". His supporters counter that where the ultimate penalty is at stake, it should be for the courts to be beyond any reasonable doubt of his guilt.

10. Even if you set aside the issue of Davis's innocence or guilt, the manner of his execution tonight is cruel and unnatural. If the execution goes ahead as expected, it would be the fourth scheduled execution date for this prisoner. In 2008 he was given a stay just 90 minutes before he was set to die. Experts in death row say such multiple experiences with imminent death is tantamount to torture.

Are you suggesting that you are, or at sometime will be, responsible for such decisions?

If so, God help us.

We all (or some of us) enjoy a bit of semi-ridiculous "debate", whether on the internet or (preferably) in the pub. But I really suggest that you read back over your contributions to this thread, look in the mirror and then contemplate the possibility that you've overstayed your welcome with many of us.

More than once you expressed surprise at people believing what they've read online...as if it's just unsubstantiated gossip and rumour. When it's actually research revealing affidavits and other matters.

To describe that as "something read online" does sound dismissve.

Do you remember the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four? Do you remember all that evidence that was pointing to their innocence while successive figures refused to do anything about it? Eventually the right thing was done. This in the UK.

Do you not think that in the USA where Judges and various court officials are subject far more to politics than in the UK that these matters have no influence?

I have never suggested this.

I thought you were in the camp that, "All those that believe in deities are frothing loons." Why the reference to God?

Thank you for that advice. I can't quite believe it myself, but I have actually done what you suggested. It would appear from my review of what I have said, that my contributions can be summarized as follows:

a) The State is justified in executing some of its citizens - Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler and the like (posts 3, 30);
b) Unless one has read all of the evidence and the judgments of those that made the decisions (to ascertain why the decision was made and upon what authority) one cannot really comment with any form of authority about the decision (posts 9, 41);
c) Those that believe that the man is innocent or guilty based upon what they read online and without reviewing all of the evidence are naive (post 13);
d) I have no knowledge of the facts of this case or the process that has been worked through (posts 21, 25, 30 and 51);
e) Is it a moral question, or a legal one? (post 15);
f) Is the US Justice System inherently racist? (posts 15, 18 & 34);
g) One wrong conviction is one too many (post 18);
h) One assumes the decisions were made based upon the evidence presented to the arbiter (posts 22, 30, 34, 41, 43 & 49);
i) What other solutions are there? (post 22);
j) Is killing during a war justified? (post 43); and
k) Where have a been a fool and responding to insults thrown by other posters? (posts 46 & 52).

I appreciate that there were a number of overlaping posts and that, interspersed with the above, other comments were made. At no point have I expressed an opinion upon whether the executed man was innocent or guilty. I really don't care, I appreciate that others do.

I don't believe that any of my posts have been insulting or offensive.

I have looked in the mirror and I noted that I am still the same overweight, middle aged, white man that I was when I went to bed last night.

I was not invited to join this forum by you and, IIRC, I have had a single discussion behind the scenes with the moderaters since I joined this forum. If my memory serves me correctly, that was before I came to Canada, so, some time ago.

Having taken your advice on board, here is a little for you: You don't have to read my posts, you don't have to respond to them. If you find me offensive or insulting in any way, report me to the moderators and, if they agree with you, I am confident they will take it up with me.

This is not your forum and anyone is permitted to comment on it in any way they wish, provided they stay within the rules. If you believe I have broken any such rules, again, report me to the moderators.

This is not the first time it would appear that you have attempted to chase people from the forum and, in my most respectful submission, that demonstrates extreme arrogance on your part. Should you not be the type that wishes to use the appropriate channels to complain about others, I respectfully suggest that you use the "Ignore" button.

Wishing you a very good day

One assumes these were presented to the Courts too.

I didn't intend it to be dismissive and I apologize for it sounding so. I intended to suggest that, unless one reads the actual evidence, one cannot know the facts. I assume you agree with this?

So the US has a crap system and the UK has a great one; is that what you are saying? I respectfully suggest that the influence of politics in both systems is likely to be very similar but, again, I don't know.

We are going round in circles here and I am becoming tired of this debate.

You believe he is innocent, I have no opinion one way or the other. I really, really don't care.

I think that's largely irrelevant to the question of what should be done in his case and, more generally, those pursued by the Justice Project. Poor people are incarcerated under a system that's unfair to the poor, maybe minorities too, but certainly the poor. After an extended period a prisoner is found not to have commited the crime for which he or she was imprisoned, he or she was typically stitched up by the police as an easy target; easy for being poor and easy for being "known".

Now we have a person originally of dubious character who's been institutionalised, likely become a drug user, and lost all faith in society. I suggest that, if the person is released, he or she will not take up accounting and move to the American Ruislip. I stop short of saying "might as well be executed" but what is to be done with the legions of Rubin Carters?

This is the stuff that bothers me most about your posts. The options are presented as innocent or guilty. But I don't think anyone has suggested he's innocent. The reservations are about guilt. I'm not saying he's innocent. Something just doesn't look right and justice is supposed to be seen.

Yes, one does assume the decisions were based on the evidence presented at the time. As has been stated, there was no physical evidence, just 9 witnesses.

Since then 7 witnesses have indicated their statements were not what they would have said freely.

You keep saying that which is now being questioned has been examined on the appeals. But with many cases in England through all their appeals it was clear from the investigations made that those people were not guilty of the crimes yet all those judges and Home Secretaries refused to recognise it. Then one day they did.

If that can happen in the UK it can certainly happen in the US. And has.

The Death Penalty is a different issue. For now, though, I just think people would have been happy to have seen no execution while there are still doubts about more than 70% of the evidence used to convict him.

Is there no resource that you would trust to give you similar cause for concern rather than just assuming it's all been done as it should be?

One could argue that most justice systems in the western world are unfair to the poor, in both a criminal and civil sense.

As I have stated, repeatedly, I had no knowledge of the facts of this case when I first posted, and the only "facts" I have learned about it are those set out above.

Having just Googled Rubin Carter it would appear that the Justice system in that case prevailed which, I note, was in the US. As I said above, any incorrect conviction is wrong but, as doctors sometimes remove the wrong limb, painters sometimes paint the wrong house, computer programmers sometimes remove the wrong line of code, Courts sometimes convict the wrong person.

I believe that if you look at my previous postings on the death penalty, you will note that I believe that in cases where there is no doubt about the guilt of the accused, I have no problem with it but that, in all other scenarios, I do. I accept others may disagree and I have no issue with that, I just wish they would reciprocate