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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   PM Boris (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/pm-boris-926655/)

Shard Sep 26th 2019 6:42 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12740658)

It's hard to encourage people to vote on cold, emotionless facts, and when most of the popular media is on the opposition's side. Leave had an advantage of having had the near-constant drip-drip of anti-EU stories for at least 20 yrs, creating fear and division, and the EU referendum gave readers of those publications an outlet for their voices.
This.

Almost Canadian Sep 26th 2019 6:45 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Oakvillian (Post 12740645)
True, that may be a difficult position to take, but the degree to which Brexit allows the UK to "take back conrtol" of immigration (and absolutely, the degree to which that is actually a desirable outcome) is certainly questionable. Much easier, though, to point out the fact that there were (indeed, until Brexit, there still are) already very many tools in the EU toolbox (such as requiring registration, requiring proof of gainful employment within a certain period, etc etc) for EU migrants that the UK chose not to implement. Those tools would have provided significantly greater control over immigration within the context of the EU.
I can't argue with that!

Shard Sep 26th 2019 6:46 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12740651)
.

2. The UK's demand for cheap labour means that there will still be loads of impoverished immigrants, perhaps more Chinese and Indians, perhaps America's rejects, just from different countries. I don't think the average Britain particularly hates his or her house being burgled by Europeans, they just don't want their houses burgled, so it's out-of-the-frying-pan.
That's the irony of the anti-FOM position. It's a case of be careful what you wish for...

Shard Sep 26th 2019 6:51 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Oakvillian (Post 12740645)
True, that may be a difficult position to take, but the degree to which Brexit allows the UK to "take back conrtol" of immigration (and absolutely, the degree to which that is actually a desirable outcome) is certainly questionable. Much easier, though, to point out the fact that there were (indeed, until Brexit, there still are) already very many tools in the EU toolbox (such as requiring registration, requiring proof of gainful employment within a certain period, etc etc) for EU migrants that the UK chose not to implement. Those tools would have provided significantly greater control over immigration within the context of the EU.
This 'many tools' point was made during the first referendum, but very few Leavers wanted to listen or understand. Just so much easier to start yapping about "an Australian style points system" and disregarding the fact that non-EU immigration was never controlled either. Many Leavers were/are simply emotionally hijacked by the Brexit media and Brexit parties and not interested in rational discussion.

Almost Canadian Sep 26th 2019 6:55 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12740651)
1. The UK could have restricted immigration from within the EU while staying in; there's no requirement that any EU citizen be allowed to live anywhere.
While correct, as you well know, the ability to limit the residence is nowhere near as expansive as it will be when outside of the EU.

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12740651)
2. The UK's demand for cheap labour means that there will still be loads of impoverished immigrants, perhaps more Chinese and Indians, perhaps America's rejects, just from different countries. I don't think the average Britain particularly hates his or her house being burgled by Europeans, they just don't want their houses burgled, so it's out-of-the-frying-pan.
True, but Polish plumbers cannot come to Canada and undercut the local workforce as they can throughout the EU. That is not an issue if you want to have your plumbing done cheaply, but is if you are a plumber that loses your livelihood, or has your income reduced, as a result.


Almost Canadian Sep 26th 2019 6:58 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12740658)
It's hard to encourage people to vote on cold, emotionless facts, and when most of the popular media is on the opposition's side. Leave had an advantage of having had the near-constant drip-drip of anti-EU stories for at least 20 yrs, creating fear and division, and the EU referendum gave readers of those publications an outlet for their voices.

Yes, Remain could have done better. Any suggestions on what they could/should have done?
I had left almost a decade before the vote so I don't know what arguments, for or against, were put forward but, if the electorate were not persuaded on the arguments, or couldn't be bothered to vote, history shows what can happen.

Jingsamichty Sep 26th 2019 7:13 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12740670)
I had left almost a decade before the vote so I don't know what arguments, for or against, were put forward but, if the electorate were not persuaded on the arguments, or couldn't be bothered to vote, history shows what can happen.
One needn't consider the electorate as a whole.... the informed on either side will vote according to their considered opinions. It's only the uninformed that you need to win over... to put it crudely, Sun readers, Mail readers, Mirror readers. And emotion trumps over fact with that lot.

Cummings is clearly driving Johnson to appeal to the emotive not the cerebral, I can promise you that my Facebook feed is testament to the success of that strategy. But hopefully in the final event, cerebral will win over emotion.

What fascinating times we live in. And all the while utterly ignoring the very real climate catastrophe that awaits our grandchildren.

scrubbedexpat142 Sep 26th 2019 7:14 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12740633)
Well....I think if the EU had remained as it was initially intended....a simple trading block/agreement between member countries,
The EU is what was originally intended, trading agreements were just a stepping stone.

From the Schumann Declaration, 1950 -

this proposal will lead to the realization of the first concrete foundation of a European federation indispensable to the preservation of peace.

Shard Sep 26th 2019 7:15 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12740668)
True, but Polish plumbers cannot come to Canada and undercut the local workforce as they can throughout the EU. That is not an issue if you want to have your plumbing done cheaply, but is if you are a plumber that loses your livelihood, or has your income reduced, as a result.
Because expensive plumbing is the mark of a civilised society right? I had an English plumber come by last month, you have no need to worry about his paycheck !

Jingsamichty Sep 26th 2019 7:33 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12740676)
Because expensive plumbing is the mark of a civilised society right? I had an English plumber come by last month, you have no need to worry about his paycheck !
Polish plumbers cannot legally undercut British plumbers, unless British customers are happy to break the law. And if an electorate is willing to break the law so readily, we may as well all move to Italy.

Almost Canadian Sep 26th 2019 7:37 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 12740674)
One needn't consider the electorate as a whole.... the informed on either side will vote according to their considered opinions. It's only the uninformed that you need to win over... to put it crudely, Sun readers, Mail readers, Mirror readers. And emotion trumps over fact with that lot.

Cummings is clearly driving Johnson to appeal to the emotive not the cerebral, I can promise you that my Facebook feed is testament to the success of that strategy. But hopefully in the final event, cerebral will win over emotion.

What fascinating times we live in. And all the while utterly ignoring the very real climate catastrophe that awaits our grandchildren.
Oh, I see. The argument that those that don't agree with you are "uninformed."

I would have voted to remain, but I wouldn't attempt to argue that those that disagreed with me were uninformed. They simply have different priorities. None of which are any less valid than mine.

Many of my relatives live in Cornwall. Post 1992, they had nothing good to say about the EU. Many of my other relatives live in Ireland and, for them, the EU is a wonderful thing. Each equally valid and to dismiss one over the other simply because of how their lives, or yours, is affected is, sorry, bullshit.

Almost Canadian Sep 26th 2019 7:45 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 12740684)
Polish plumbers cannot legally undercut British plumbers, unless British customers are happy to break the law. And if an electorate is willing to break the law so readily, we may as well all move to Italy.
EH? Has the UK changed that much since I left in 2007? If I ask a plumber for a quote to fix something, are his/her fees mandated by legislation?

I appreciate that an employer may not be able to pay their employers differently based upon nationality but, whether the employer gets the work in the first place is simple economics, is it not?

Jingsamichty Sep 26th 2019 7:45 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12740686)
Oh, I see. The argument that those that don't agree with you are "uninformed."

I would have voted to remain, but I wouldn't attempt to argue that those that disagreed with me were uninformed. They simply have different priorities. None of which are any less valid than mine.

Many of my relatives live in Cornwall. Post 1992, they had nothing good to say about the EU. Many of my other relatives live in Ireland and, for them, the EU is a wonderful thing. Each equally valid and to dismiss one over the other simply because of how their lives, or yours, is affected is, sorry, bullshit.
Of course they were uninformed. Even today, 3 and a half years later, they're still uninformed. Why did the government have to be legally forced to reveal certain documents like Operation Yellowhammer?

I'm not saying they were stupid or racist, but - uninformed as to what Brexit entails - absolutely yes. Then and now.

DaveLovesDee Sep 26th 2019 7:55 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12740670)
I had left almost a decade before the vote so I don't know what arguments, for or against, were put forward but, if the electorate were not persuaded on the arguments, or couldn't be bothered to vote, history shows what can happen.
Those who weren't persuaded by the arguments in favour of Leaving, and those who didn't vote for whatever reason, could have been assumed to have either been in favour of the status quo (Remain) or just didn't care enough to change it (discounting those Leavers who didn't receive ballot papers in time).

Almost Canadian Sep 26th 2019 7:58 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 12740694)
Of course they were uninformed. Even today, 3 and a half years later, they're still uninformed. Why did the government have to be legally forced to reveal certain documents like Operation Yellowhammer?

I'm not saying they were stupid or racist, but - uninformed as to what Brexit entails - absolutely yes. Then and now.
My apologies. I have just re-read what you wrote and I am the stupid one.


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