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British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   PM Boris (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/pm-boris-926655/)

dave_j Sep 27th 2019 4:07 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12740855)
I have family in the Middlesbrough area.
Middlesbrough and Teeside did very well out of the EU, precisely because it's a deprived area.
I sometimes wonder whether posters actually understand posts.
I'm pleased that you have family in the area, but I lived there for forty years before coming to Canada.
The area may have received some cash from the EU, but ask the residents of South Bank or Port Clarence whether they saw much of it.
I witnessed the demise of the steel industry and the decimation of it's support structure over the years and the slimming down of the chemicals industry.
Yes, there are some affluent areas. I lived in Yarm but comparing Yarm to Stockton is like chalk and cheese. Walk down Stockton High Street or Linthorpe Road in Middlesbrough and count the number of boarded up shops, something unknown in Yarm.
There is no substitute for jobs and the residents of the area didn't see any coming from the EU. True, things may not have been much different had the UK not been a member, but they were in the EU and the people of the area, unlike those in the prosperous south, saw jobs disappearing and nobody doing much to help create new ones.
I can't blame them for voting Leave, but they did and if I'd been in the UK I'd have followed them like so many others, for perfectly good logical reasons.
Remainers point to the 'lies' on the bus, but that isn't why they voted Leave, it's because the status quo offered them nothing and they saw Westminster as colluding with the EU in keeping them deprived.
The average MP does very well, they go to bed well fed, they simply do not understand how normal people live, and the normal people of the UK won't understand or forgive if Brexit isn't allowed to happen.
You ask what Brexit offers. The simple answer is Hope. The prospect of a Freeport being created on the old site of the Steel industry, outlawed by the EU, but proposed once the UK has left at least offers this, something the EU did not, could not and would not do.

Shard Sep 27th 2019 4:15 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dave_j (Post 12741018)
I
I can't blame them for voting Leave, but they did and if I'd been in the UK I'd have followed them like so many others, for perfectly good logical reasons.
Remainers point to the 'lies' on the bus, but that isn't why they voted Leave, it's because the status quo offered them nothing and they saw Westminster as colluding with the EU in keeping them deprived.

You ask what Brexit offers. The simple answer is Hope. The prospect of a Freeport being created on the old site of the Steel industry, outlawed by the EU, but proposed once the UK has left at least offers this, something the EU did not, could not and would not do.
Yes, definitely some Leave voters are in such a desperate state that they want to break the status quo. The hard reality is that with the exception of the odd UK government project (you mentioned one of the Freeports) they are not likely to see much improvement. And if the economy does tank (as predicted) they will be even worse off. Yet, I see their logic in rolling the dice.


DaveLovesDee Sep 27th 2019 4:19 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12740979)
There are marginal diferences between the states in the US, but comparing that to the differing cultures of each country in Europe is like comparing apples and oranges. The Untied States has grown together as a country, because it was born as one country....and in comparitive terns is a new country. Europe and the countries and the individual cultures they possess in comparison is ancient.....1000+ years. How can those cultures be expected to harmonious after less than 50 years....
Was the US born as one country? I thought it began as Native Indian land, before immigrants pushed the natives out and started making territories.

Who, other than some Leavers, believe the rest of your post?

what suits Germany certainly wont suit Greece....their culture is the polar opposite. .
Neither German or Greek culture are being changed by their EU membership, and neither will be.

DaveLovesDee Sep 27th 2019 4:23 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dave_j (Post 12741018)
I sometimes wonder whether posters actually understand posts.
I wonder whether you check the facts before you make claims.

I'm pleased that you have family in the area, but I lived there for forty years before coming to Canada.
The area may have received some cash from the EU, but ask the residents of South Bank or Port Clarence whether they saw much of it.
I witnessed the demise of the steel industry and the decimation of it's support structure over the years and the slimming down of the chemicals industry.
Yes, there are some affluent areas. I lived in Yarm but comparing Yarm to Stockton is like chalk and cheese. Walk down Stockton High Street or Linthorpe Road in Middlesbrough and count the number of boarded up shops, something unknown in Yarm.
There is no substitute for jobs and the residents of the area didn't see any coming from the EU. True, things may not have been much different had the UK not been a member, but they were in the EU and the people of the area, unlike those in the prosperous south, saw jobs disappearing and nobody doing much to help create new ones.
I can't blame them for voting Leave, but they did and if I'd been in the UK I'd have followed them like so many others, for perfectly good logical reasons.
Remainers point to the 'lies' on the bus, but that isn't why they voted Leave, it's because the status quo offered them nothing and they saw Westminster as colluding with the EU in keeping them deprived.
The average MP does very well, they go to bed well fed, they simply do not understand how normal people live, and the normal people of the UK won't understand or forgive if Brexit isn't allowed to happen.
You ask what Brexit offers. The simple answer is Hope. The prospect of a Freeport being created on the old site of the Steel industry, outlawed by the EU, but proposed once the UK has left at least offers this, something the EU did not, could not and would not do.
The UK had Freeports until 2012, until the relevant UK legislation ended without being continued. Malta still has one.

https://fullfact.org/europe/free-ports/

dbd33 Sep 27th 2019 4:23 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dave_j (Post 12741018)
I
I can't blame them for voting Leave, but they did and if I'd been in the UK I'd have followed them like so many others, for perfectly good logical reasons.
Remainers point to the 'lies' on the bus, but that isn't why they voted Leave, it's because the status quo offered them nothing and they saw Westminster as colluding with the EU in keeping them deprived.
The average MP does very well, they go to bed well fed, they simply do not understand how normal people live, and the normal people of the UK won't understand or forgive if Brexit isn't allowed to happen.
You ask what Brexit offers. The simple answer is Hope. The prospect of a Freeport being created on the old site of the Steel industry, outlawed by the EU, but proposed once the UK has left at least offers this, something the EU did not, could not and would not do.
This is not a logical reason, it's whimsy. It's especially not a logical reason because a glaring example of someone doing very well out of being a MEP, colluding with the EU, is the man advocating leaving; Nigel Farage. You've been had, mate. It's not grim up north because of the EU, indeed the EU provides funds to make it a little less grim and offers the chance for the impoverished grunts of the north to pick up their diseased lungs and limbs crushed from errant dock cranes and move to somewhere warm while enjoying reciprocal, possibly better, healthcare. Middlesbrough or Torremolinos? You leavers are condemning people to life in the former.

Almost Canadian Sep 27th 2019 5:06 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12740991)
Again, I'm not seeing a benefit to leave. The only one advanced so far is the dubious benefit of being able to keep out more of the foreigns.
There are, of course, many, you are simply choosing not to look for them. Reclaiming territorial waters for fishing, being able to strike whatever trade deals the country wishes to without having to consider how it may affect other members of the EU, and the UK Parliament becoming sovereign once again.

Almost Canadian Sep 27th 2019 5:08 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by DaveLovesDee (Post 12741024)
Neither German or Greek culture are being changed by their EU membership, and neither will be.
I believe that, over the last few years, the Greeks would disagree with your statement here.

Shard Sep 27th 2019 5:19 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12741054)
There are, of course, many, you are simply choosing not to look for them. Reclaiming territorial waters for fishing, being able to strike whatever trade deals the country wishes to without having to consider how it may affect other members of the EU, and the UK Parliament becoming sovereign once again.
The reality is that it's a trade-off, and that's what rarely gets discussed. Do we protect our fishing industry at the expense of our financial services sector, add another thousand fishing jobs while losing 30,000 services jobs, that kind of thing. What kind of laws will a completely sovereign Parliament want to enact different from the EU, lower quality standards? less social protection? On new trade deals, what are we restricted on now? Why do Germany and France have no problem operating within an EU framework? We always hear about these sunlit uplands, but when you press for detail there are no concrete examples of the gains to be had.

dbd33 Sep 27th 2019 5:21 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12741054)
There are, of course, many, you are simply choosing not to look for them. Reclaiming territorial waters for fishing, being able to strike whatever trade deals the country wishes to without having to consider how it may affect other members of the EU, and the UK Parliament becoming sovereign once again.
The latter is too nebulous for me; I'm not seeing a lot of restriction on the power of Parliament now. The ability to negotiate trade deals is, I think, weakened by leaving. The EU as a bloc offers a huge market to, for example, the South American countries. The EU has clout in trade, the UK not so much. We must, of course, offset the loss of trade deals with the European countries, deals we know of, against these new deals. The only new deal I've heard of is with Donald Trump; a man with a history of cheating in trade, the victims of his deals are always stiffed. That's not going to be a win-win.

Fish, I gotta give ya fish.

dbd33 Sep 27th 2019 5:23 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12741061)
The reality is that it's a trade-off, and that's what rarely gets discussed. Do we protect our fishing industry at the expense of our financial services sector.
financial services and car manufacture.

Shard Sep 27th 2019 5:31 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12741064)
financial services and car manufacture.
Well, there are many sectors hit by Brexit. The Leave campaign highlighted the beleaguered UK fishing industry and pitted mercenary French and Spanish vessels against solid and forlorn Cornish and Scottish fishermen with nothing to do. It was an emotional, manipulative campaign. Of course, there are issues in off shore fishing, and Britain does list out, but it has to be seen in the wider context of us accessing European markets to sell slightly less romantic items like insurance !

Annetje Sep 27th 2019 5:34 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12741064)
financial services and car manufacture.
... Farming industry, Lamb industry ...

Shard Sep 27th 2019 5:37 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12741071)
... Farming industry, Lamb industry ...
Didn't you know when we are out of the EU we plan to sell our lamb to New Zealand. Global Britain !

dbd33 Sep 27th 2019 5:38 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by Annetje (Post 12741071)
... Farming industry, Lamb industry ...
Yes, I understand there's to be mass slaughter of unsaleable sheep upon Brexit. I suppose Dominic Cummings' EU funded farm doesn't have sheep.

Annetje Sep 27th 2019 5:41 am
Re: PM Boris
 
Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12741074)
Yes, I understand there's to be mass slaughter of unsaleable sheep upon Brexit. I suppose Dominic Cummings' EU funded farm doesn't have sheep.
I seem to remember Government offering to buy these sheep ... Deal or no deal ?


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