No one is iliegal

Old Aug 19th 2014, 7:47 pm
  #61  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

To give you an example where if you got in you could stay, Chinese national that made it across the border to Hong Kong were permitted to stay, did not stop the authorities trying to prevent them getting in, most are now hong kong citizens, and many moved on to Vancouver while I was there. This was permitted to avoid the Chinese that were taking over in 1997. So we have an example of a place where if you got in, you stay. HK.
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Old Aug 19th 2014, 10:54 pm
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

So Im assuming that 99% of expats posting on this site applied to come to Canada legally be it by spousal sponsorship, FSW, PNP, CEC etc. They paid their fees and supplied paperwork and some probably had to jump through some hoops to finally get that PR status and then citizenship. They are now gainfully employed and paying taxes, EI & CPP contributions.

So Joe Smith who is a 30 year old general labourer for any construction company and holding a valid passport comes to Canada for whatever reason i.e. visiting family, girlfriend or a tourist or on a valid IEC work permit or TWP. Joe really likes it in Canada and wants to stay. He finds an employer willing to pay him under the table cash in hand. Joe has no medical coverage or insurance but he's 30 and in good shape. He doesn't leave Canada nor apply for an extension of stay and whatever permit he was on has now expired. Therefore Joe is now in Canada without authorization in other words he is illegally in Canada and working.

The only taxes Joe is paying are consumption taxes i.e. HST,PST and GST. Joe is working in a job that could be filled by a Canadian citizen or PR. Maybe you have just lost your construction labourer job and would like to have applied for Joes job but it was never going to be advertised for you to apply on.
One day at work Joe has a very serious accident and requires extensive medical treatment with numerous operations and surgeries. The hospital are asking for Joes medical card or medical insurance policy. Joe spends several months in hospital and is eventually released.

So should Joe go home or just carry on and see if his former employer will give him his old job back.
BTW who ended up paying the hospital treatment fees?
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 12:16 am
  #63  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Joe should indeed be sent back, if following proper procedures he is shown to be in the country illegally. How likely was it that Joe was picked up in this operation?
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:02 am
  #64  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
So Im assuming that 99% of expats posting on this site applied to come to Canada legally be it by spousal sponsorship, FSW, PNP, CEC etc. They paid their fees and supplied paperwork and some probably had to jump through some hoops to finally get that PR status and then citizenship. They are now gainfully employed and paying taxes, EI & CPP contributions.

So Joe Smith who is a 30 year old general labourer for any construction company and holding a valid passport comes to Canada for whatever reason i.e. visiting family, girlfriend or a tourist or on a valid IEC work permit or TWP. Joe really likes it in Canada and wants to stay. He finds an employer willing to pay him under the table cash in hand. Joe has no medical coverage or insurance but he's 30 and in good shape. He doesn't leave Canada nor apply for an extension of stay and whatever permit he was on has now expired. Therefore Joe is now in Canada without authorization in other words he is illegally in Canada and working.

The only taxes Joe is paying are consumption taxes i.e. HST,PST and GST. Joe is working in a job that could be filled by a Canadian citizen or PR. Maybe you have just lost your construction labourer job and would like to have applied for Joes job but it was never going to be advertised for you to apply on.
It wouldn't be advertised because firms want people who speak the language of the firm and work for cash. If a firm advertises for plasterers in Kilburn to work in Canada there's bugger all chance they want a cradle Canadian for the job. Such jobs aren't taken away from the general public but are only ever available to specific people.

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
One day at work Joe has a very serious accident and requires extensive medical treatment with numerous operations and surgeries. The hospital are asking for Joes medical card or medical insurance policy. Joe spends several months in hospital and is eventually released.

So should Joe go home or just carry on and see if his former employer will give him his old job back.
BTW who ended up paying the hospital treatment fees?
The people I have known in that circumstance have gone home once they could physically do so. Their fare has often been paid by a whip round in the pub. It seems a bit unfair that having contributed to the Canadian economy for years, perhaps decades, they're effectively thrown out but that's the risk of not having a work permit. The hospital bill will follow them, most will ignore it.
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 4:38 am
  #65  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

None of these comments on this forum even matter anyway. In another 80 years or so, there won't be any independent nation states and people will be free to travel and take up residence wherever they please. The first 2 minutes of this video says so:


On a more serious note, until all countries simultaneously and multilaterally agree to dissolve their borders and modify their laws to accommodate each others needs and help each other out, then we need enforced immigration policies in place. Unification Day most likely won't be celebrated until the year 2200 at the very earliest. Society has such a long way to go before this will become possible.
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 11:28 am
  #66  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

The city of Toronto is already pushing for the above:

A DADT Policy at the City of Toronto would ensure:

• Access to city services is not discriminatory on the basis of immigration status. All residents of the city would have access to vital city services, including health care, education, emergency services, housing, food banks, and social services.
• City workers, along with applications for city services, would be forbidden from inquiring into immigration status. All residents of the city with less than full legal status as citizens or permanent residents could apply for and use city services without fear that their immigration status will be discovered.
• City workers, should they discover the immigration status of persons accessing city services would be prohibited from sharing this information with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. All residents of the city would be able to access city services without fear that information they provide will place them in risk of deportation and detention.
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 12:46 pm
  #67  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Originally Posted by magnumpi
The city of Toronto is already pushing for the above:

A DADT Policy at the City of Toronto would ensure:

• Access to city services is not discriminatory on the basis of immigration status. All residents of the city would have access to vital city services, including health care, education, emergency services, housing, food banks, and social services.
• City workers, along with applications for city services, would be forbidden from inquiring into immigration status. All residents of the city with less than full legal status as citizens or permanent residents could apply for and use city services without fear that their immigration status will be discovered.
• City workers, should they discover the immigration status of persons accessing city services would be prohibited from sharing this information with Citizenship and Immigration Canada. All residents of the city would be able to access city services without fear that information they provide will place them in risk of deportation and detention.
From the perspective of the City of Toronto, and ignoring politics for a moment, that makes sound economic sense. Allowing people in need, regardless of circumstances, to access city services will in all likelihood lead to a much lower incidence of emergency care being required. Emergency services cost much more to deliver than office-hours services. And enshrining in some sort of code of conduct that city services are "safe" to access from the point of view of not being grassed to CIC, would mean that people are all the more likely to avail themselves of a service before they are in crisis.

That ends up saving money for tax-paying residents in the long run. Isn't that what you're after, Magnum?
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:07 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Err NO

I look at this from a totally selfish POV. I had to pay cash and fill out a forest full of forms just to come here so why shouldn't others.

But if this is the future then be it I suppose. Sure is an easier way to emigrate !!
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:08 pm
  #69  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Let me try and take this in another direction, related, but on a tangent.

Let's say all Canadians are given a guaranteed job with a very good level of income, not much of a job, you would have to turn up and perhaps supervise some workers, but without any risk to your job and status. All the real workers are foreigners that can use the facilities that Canada has, but if they break the law or drop a nollock they are repatriated to the country of origin. This allows them to escape the country they were once living, improving the standard of their living and hopefully these hard workers would be law abiding knowing that they would be deported. The problem is these workers could never get Canadian citizenship, because that would mean they were equal to Canadians, and would get easier better paid jobs. The country can afford to do it as it has vast resources, Canadians would feel good because they are doing well, everything works we'll because temp foreign skilled workers can do everything they need doing and the country is getting more efficient and wealthier. The foreign workers are happy because they are getting their children educated and are repatriating money to country of domicile for their eventual retirement back in the country of origin. Do you think that would be an acceptable model for the country to have? There are some issues. Ethical, moral, economic. Canada could have this, open doors to those with the skills , but when you are spent, you go home. Now can we discuss this without anyone saying someone is a racist. Pleeaase!
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:19 pm
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Originally Posted by magnumpi
. Sure is an easier way to emigrate !!
Yeah. Right.

First, have little enough to lose that illegal immigration, fear of deportation, lack of access to medical insurance, EI, job security, etc all seems like a good idea.

Next, get to Canada, either arriving legitimately and overstaying or by sneaking in in the first place.

Continue to live below the radar, on the edges of society, likely in poverty, in a permanent state of precarious looking-over-shoulder anxiety.

For me, I'd prefer to have been born into a middle class English family and to have had the opportunity to spend lots of money to immigrate officially. I think that is rather the easier way to do it.
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:21 pm
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Originally Posted by Yorkiechef
Let me try and take this in another direction, related, but on a tangent.

Let's say all Canadians are given a guaranteed job with a very good level of income, not much of a job, you would have to turn up and perhaps supervise some workers, but without any risk to your job and status. All the real workers are foreigners that can use the facilities that Canada has, but if they break the law or drop a nollock they are repatriated to the country of origin. This allows them to escape the country they were once living, improving the standard of their living and hopefully these hard workers would be law abiding knowing that they would be deported. The problem is these workers could never get Canadian citizenship, because that would mean they were equal to Canadians, and would get easier better paid jobs. The country can afford to do it as it has vast resources, Canadians would feel good because they are doing well, everything works we'll because temp foreign skilled workers can do everything they need doing and the country is getting more efficient and wealthier. The foreign workers are happy because they are getting their children educated and are repatriating money to country of domicile for their eventual retirement back in the country of origin. Do you think that would be an acceptable model for the country to have? There are some issues. Ethical, moral, economic. Canada could have this, open doors to those with the skills , but when you are spent, you go home. Now can we discuss this without anyone saying someone is a racist. Pleeaase!
You appear to have just described the Qatari model of immigration. Was that deliberate?
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:26 pm
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Originally Posted by Oakvillian
Yeah. Right.

First, have little enough to lose that illegal immigration, fear of deportation, lack of access to medical insurance, EI, job security, etc all seems like a good idea.

Next, get to Canada, either arriving legitimately and overstaying or by sneaking in in the first place.

Continue to live below the radar, on the edges of society, likely in poverty, in a permanent state of precarious looking-over-shoulder anxiety.

For me, I'd prefer to have been born into a middle class English family and to have had the opportunity to spend lots of money to immigrate officially. I think that is rather the easier way to do it.
You not get it do you

"No one is illegal" are campaigning for all of the above to be legal, so no fear of being deported free health care and affordable housing to all who are here regardless of their status
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:32 pm
  #73  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Do you recognise any aspects of this model in Canada at the present time, or perhaps for the future?

Does this work for Qatar?
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:34 pm
  #74  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

I get the various points that are being made, but having gone through the proper path to immigration ourselves (both for me going to the UK and then for Husband to come to Canada), knowing the money that was spent on paperwork and the time required to wait for everything to come through... I think that if people want to come to Canada, they should do it the proper way. Those who are here illegally and without status shouldn't be allowed to stay.

I know that UKBA occasionally does 'sting' operations, they'll just go stand on a busy street in London and watch for people who start to avoid them or start acting nervous around them. They have caught people who are in the country illegally that way. I agree with the points Oakvillian pointed out early on in the thread, that doing it under the guise of a traffic check is potentially bad... at least when UKBA does the street stings they are around on their own and wearing their uniforms.

I don't know. There has to be some way of trying to catch people who are in the country without status... other than catching them at a POE or doing a raid of a workplace based on a tip, what other options are there? Perhaps they shouldn't do it under the guise of something else, but I do think they should be doing something.
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Old Aug 20th 2014, 1:36 pm
  #75  
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Default Re: No one is iliegal

Could this be a model that w/could be acceptable in Canada, it would allow the liberal types to feel good about themselves, but would it be enough to satisfy their need to be for fair and equal that it couldn't possibly work
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