EU Referendum
Jul 12th 2016 | 1:28 am
#616
Realist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 24,667
From: UK
Re: EU Referendum
I'm in Germany now (my second home), and I've brought up the subject frequently with the locals. My sense is that Germans seem a lot less interested in it than Brits are. Although they seem to be rather confused about the referendum, and especially the anti-EU and anti-everything vitriol that emulated from it.
Germans just don't fear EU membership like Brits do, and in fact widely embrace it. And they do seem to interpret Britain's anti-EU rhetoric as unwarranted fear, not some march toward "freedom and democracy" as often sold by the leave camp, simply because as an EU member, Germany is pretty free and democratic as it is. That whole argument just doesn't reckon with most Germans.
But there is some dissent about immigration - although it's exclusively directed toward refugees rather than EU migrants, a "crisis" which by comparison, Britain simply cannot lay claim to (yet clearly does, if you remember for example, Farage's infamous poster, and the constant stream of hysterical tabloid headlines).
Plus, overall, Germany has until now, done pretty well inside the EU. It's economically in good shape, and the vast majority of people live a pretty high standard. So it's all a bit confusing for them.
Most seem fully aware that Brexit hurts everyone, including Germany, but I sense the general feeling is that it hurts Britain the most, and because Britain brought this on itself, will need to sort it out itself. They seem to look at it as a British problem, and so there's not a lot of daily thought or discussion about it.
Germans just don't fear EU membership like Brits do, and in fact widely embrace it. And they do seem to interpret Britain's anti-EU rhetoric as unwarranted fear, not some march toward "freedom and democracy" as often sold by the leave camp, simply because as an EU member, Germany is pretty free and democratic as it is. That whole argument just doesn't reckon with most Germans.
But there is some dissent about immigration - although it's exclusively directed toward refugees rather than EU migrants, a "crisis" which by comparison, Britain simply cannot lay claim to (yet clearly does, if you remember for example, Farage's infamous poster, and the constant stream of hysterical tabloid headlines).
Plus, overall, Germany has until now, done pretty well inside the EU. It's economically in good shape, and the vast majority of people live a pretty high standard. So it's all a bit confusing for them.
Most seem fully aware that Brexit hurts everyone, including Germany, but I sense the general feeling is that it hurts Britain the most, and because Britain brought this on itself, will need to sort it out itself. They seem to look at it as a British problem, and so there's not a lot of daily thought or discussion about it.
Jul 12th 2016 | 1:37 am
#617
Realist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 24,667
From: UK
Re: EU Referendum
I see I started this thread in January as a way to find out about remote voting. Well, it was complicated enough to organize a proxy vote but I managed it in the end. Didn't do the Cause a lot of good as I am a Remainer and we lost.
I unsubscribed from the thread but have been obsessed by the Fallout so I'm back on it.
I never thought I'd live to see the day where I would be desperate for Theresa May to become PM but that day came.
Does anyone feel like I do (and like I read other journalists say lots of people are feeling) that it's all a bad dream we will wake up from, that you want to keep apologizing to other Europeans you meet for the behaviour of the Brits? I met some German tourists on the bus and I got to talking to them. We weren't talking about Brexit or anything but it was on the tip of my tongue to say I didn't vote out, I wanted to stay in ... but the moment passed.
My Union Jack phone case ... well that's got to go now. I'll get an EU one or a Canadian one.
Having a bit of a late night ramble. Sorry.
S
I unsubscribed from the thread but have been obsessed by the Fallout so I'm back on it.
I never thought I'd live to see the day where I would be desperate for Theresa May to become PM but that day came.
Does anyone feel like I do (and like I read other journalists say lots of people are feeling) that it's all a bad dream we will wake up from, that you want to keep apologizing to other Europeans you meet for the behaviour of the Brits? I met some German tourists on the bus and I got to talking to them. We weren't talking about Brexit or anything but it was on the tip of my tongue to say I didn't vote out, I wanted to stay in ... but the moment passed.
My Union Jack phone case ... well that's got to go now. I'll get an EU one or a Canadian one.
Having a bit of a late night ramble. Sorry.
S
I think it depends on whether you thought the EU was to celebrated or despised. Personally, I have similar feelings of awkwardness when I meet EU nationals living/working here. I hope that the elite steer us out of a non-EU future, but I don't know, there are many Leavers who with the backing of the referendum will not acquiesce to anything but Brexit. Despite the charlatan Brexit team disappearing into thin air, it does seem the country is sleepwalking that way.
Jul 12th 2016 | 2:30 am
#618
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: EU Referendum
As I said previously, you still get minorities deciding governments or you get a majority but still a minority when you take into account those not voting.
But short of changing the system, say, to proportional representation, there's no other choice.
For a referendum there is another choice and it's quite a common one and that's a requirement that a change needs a minimum majority.
I've repeatedly read that MPs get to vote on it. According to the BBC prior to the referendum, MPs for remain outnumbered leave by more than 3 to 1.
In the cabinet it was 24 to 6.
Why did nobody think about about a minimum requirement or making it really obvious it was advisory?
Or now, why not set up a stooge PM who negotiates a concession of some sort and announces we stay unless people decide in a year in a further referendum.
There's probably a novel in it.
Seriously, with the admitted falsehoods, the admissions of "I didn't really mean it" and the leavers having taken refuge in the hills to avoid the fallout there really is enough to cast the whole thing in doubt.
It's like getting drunk, proposing marriage, waking up sober and regretful but going through with it anyway.
Jul 12th 2016 | 2:44 am
#619
Nuther day in paradise.ca
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,269
From: Ajax, Ontario
Re: EU Referendum
So in short, keep voting until we get the right outcome :@)
Jul 12th 2016 | 3:04 am
#620
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: EU Referendum
No.
Do the vote again so that people who changed their mind can vote according to what they NOW feel; and that those people who feel the vote gave them the right to harass immigrants and thought that the vote meant immigrants (even those born in the UK) had to leave now know it's not about that after all; and to allow those who voted to leave but see the way campaigners have fled to conclude that maybe it wasn't that good a choice after all.
Do the vote again so that people who changed their mind can vote according to what they NOW feel; and that those people who feel the vote gave them the right to harass immigrants and thought that the vote meant immigrants (even those born in the UK) had to leave now know it's not about that after all; and to allow those who voted to leave but see the way campaigners have fled to conclude that maybe it wasn't that good a choice after all.
Last edited by BristolUK; Jul 12th 2016 at 3:07 am. Reason: correct word jumble
Jul 12th 2016 | 4:01 am
#621
Realist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 24,667
From: UK
Re: EU Referendum
But they are still a minority.
As I said previously, you still get minorities deciding governments or you get a majority but still a minority when you take into account those not voting.
But short of changing the system, say, to proportional representation, there's no other choice.
For a referendum there is another choice and it's quite a common one and that's a requirement that a change needs a minimum majority.
I've repeatedly read that MPs get to vote on it. According to the BBC prior to the referendum, MPs for remain outnumbered leave by more than 3 to 1.
In the cabinet it was 24 to 6.
Why did nobody think about about a minimum requirement or making it really obvious it was advisory?
Or now, why not set up a stooge PM who negotiates a concession of some sort and announces we stay unless people decide in a year in a further referendum.
There's probably a novel in it.
Seriously, with the admitted falsehoods, the admissions of "I didn't really mean it" and the leavers having taken refuge in the hills to avoid the fallout there really is enough to cast the whole thing in doubt.
It's like getting drunk, proposing marriage, waking up sober and regretful but going through with it anyway.
As I said previously, you still get minorities deciding governments or you get a majority but still a minority when you take into account those not voting.
But short of changing the system, say, to proportional representation, there's no other choice.
For a referendum there is another choice and it's quite a common one and that's a requirement that a change needs a minimum majority.
I've repeatedly read that MPs get to vote on it. According to the BBC prior to the referendum, MPs for remain outnumbered leave by more than 3 to 1.
In the cabinet it was 24 to 6.
Why did nobody think about about a minimum requirement or making it really obvious it was advisory?
Or now, why not set up a stooge PM who negotiates a concession of some sort and announces we stay unless people decide in a year in a further referendum.
There's probably a novel in it.
Seriously, with the admitted falsehoods, the admissions of "I didn't really mean it" and the leavers having taken refuge in the hills to avoid the fallout there really is enough to cast the whole thing in doubt.
It's like getting drunk, proposing marriage, waking up sober and regretful but going through with it anyway.
Unfortunately there are also Remain waverers too. Those that wanted to Remain, but now that it's gone Leave, are ready to accept the decision and move ahead with it.
Jul 12th 2016 | 4:29 am
#622
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: EU Referendum
In fact, they could even have said it's not binding but if there's a significant majority in favour we will follow the electorate's wishes.
Unfortunately there are also Remain waverers too. Those that wanted to Remain, but now that it's gone Leave, are ready to accept the decision and move ahead with it.
Perhaps there should be a referendum to agree a second referendum.
Actually, why not a plebiscite?
"Do you agree with the government's position that this is not to time for leaving the EU and that we should revisit at a future date?"
Jul 12th 2016 | 4:35 am
#623
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,418
From: Fraser Valley BC
Re: EU Referendum
Democracy is great isn't it!
The referendum process is the purest form of collective decision making.. but what do I see here, proposals from supposedly intelligent individuals that undermine the process by suggesting that no referendum result needs to stand if you don't agree with the outcome, a little like the brat who when not chosen for the team picks up his ball and walks away with it.. or the dictator who accepts no view but his own.
I would humbly suggest that we all grow up. Even the the most uninformed of the electorate has the right to offer his vote.. and remember there will have been enough of these voting for one side as the other.. but more insidious is the suggestion that some who voted should not have been allowed to vote because in some way our vote should be worth more than theirs.
The line should be drawn, we should act like grown ups and we should move on.
The referendum process is the purest form of collective decision making.. but what do I see here, proposals from supposedly intelligent individuals that undermine the process by suggesting that no referendum result needs to stand if you don't agree with the outcome, a little like the brat who when not chosen for the team picks up his ball and walks away with it.. or the dictator who accepts no view but his own.
I would humbly suggest that we all grow up. Even the the most uninformed of the electorate has the right to offer his vote.. and remember there will have been enough of these voting for one side as the other.. but more insidious is the suggestion that some who voted should not have been allowed to vote because in some way our vote should be worth more than theirs.
The line should be drawn, we should act like grown ups and we should move on.
Jul 12th 2016 | 4:46 am
#624
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: EU Referendum
I've been called many things before. Intelligent isn't one of them. 
We have the telling of a huge lie about the NHS losing funds to the EU which seems to have swayed some, seemingly significant numbers of people suggesting if the vote was held again they'd vote the opposite way and people believing the vote was about kicking foreigners out of the country (and all the other things mentioned that some people just choose to ignore as being factors rather than simply not liking the decision)
Personally I think ignoring that undermines the democratic process.
that undermine the process
Personally I think ignoring that undermines the democratic process.
Jul 12th 2016 | 7:43 am
#625
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,418
From: Fraser Valley BC
Re: EU Referendum
We have the telling of a huge lie about the NHS losing funds to the EU which seems to have swayed some, seemingly significant numbers of people suggesting if the vote was held again they'd vote the opposite way and people believing the vote was about kicking foreigners out of the country (and all the other things mentioned that some people just choose to ignore as being factors rather than simply not liking the decision)
We are also led to believe, possibly by the same faction, that the vote was about 'kicking foreigners out'.
These are all suppositions, prejudice and the will to make a case for further voting... presumably hoping to follow the Irish and Danish who were told to think again.
In reality, I suspect that these are contributory factors, but most of all we had a groundswell seeking to revolt against the ever expanding MEP gravy train, the never ending tale of Bruxelles domination of just about everything, austerity following austerity after the 2008 banking catastrophe and subsequent lack of any accountability by those that caused it and perhaps most of all a realisation that the political classes just couldn't give a damn about the steelworker, dockworker, road sweeper or anyone who actually works for a living.. or would like to given the chance.
Jul 12th 2016 | 8:02 am
#626
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: EU Referendum
What about Farage's statement accepting it wasn't true, his denial that he was responsible but that even though he knew about it he did nothing to correct it.
What about all the people themselves who have said they were misled? That's not us being led by anyone or any faction.
Immediately after the referendum result some people went around telling people perceived as being foreign that they should leave. They even had cards printed off and delivered.
Nobody is leading me to the belief that some thought it was about kicking foreigners out. The xenophobes themselves showed it.
The police reported a massive increase in incidents of this type immediately after the vote. Just coincidence or are the police one of these mystery factions leading us to believe...?
Jul 12th 2016 | 8:23 am
#627
Realist
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 24,667
From: UK
Re: EU Referendum
If the public interviews we hear in the news each night are trepresentative Leave was mostly about immigration.
Jul 12th 2016 | 8:55 am
#628
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,418
From: Fraser Valley BC
Re: EU Referendum
Seriously? That's your argument that you or others are led to believe?
What about Farage's statement accepting it wasn't true, his denial that he was responsible but that even though he knew about it he did nothing to correct it.
What about all the people themselves who have said they were misled? That's not us being led by anyone or any faction.
Immediately after the referendum result some people went around telling people perceived as being foreign that they should leave. They even had cards printed off and delivered.
Nobody is leading me to the belief that some thought it was about kicking foreigners out. The xenophobes themselves showed it.
The police reported a massive increase in incidents of this type immediately after the vote. Just coincidence or are the police one of these mystery factions leading us to believe...?
What about Farage's statement accepting it wasn't true, his denial that he was responsible but that even though he knew about it he did nothing to correct it.
What about all the people themselves who have said they were misled? That's not us being led by anyone or any faction.
Immediately after the referendum result some people went around telling people perceived as being foreign that they should leave. They even had cards printed off and delivered.
Nobody is leading me to the belief that some thought it was about kicking foreigners out. The xenophobes themselves showed it.
The police reported a massive increase in incidents of this type immediately after the vote. Just coincidence or are the police one of these mystery factions leading us to believe...?
What I was asking others to consider was that there are other issues that strongly contributed to the final result.
Very questionable arguments, eg 'Project Fear' as an example, put forward by the Remain side don't seem to rate highly on the 'Mislead' meter by those who question the referendum result.
Jul 12th 2016 | 10:17 am
#629
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 40,070
From: Ontario
Re: EU Referendum
The leave campaign was based on stopping the immigrants and taking all that money that goes to the EU and putting it into the NHS. Neither of which were serious possibilities but both of which tap into legitimate concerns and are easy to sell. Brilliant work by those who've since done a runner.
Last edited by dbd33; Jul 12th 2016 at 10:22 am.
Jul 12th 2016 | 10:24 am
#630
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 55,309
From: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Re: EU Referendum
Speaking for myself I have referred to numerous aspects.... the turn-out; lack of a threshold; the NHS lie
the believed right to kick out immigrants; MPs; Cabinet; fleeing Brexit campaigners; people not really wanting to leave and thinking their protest vote wouldn't be important; the Scottish issue...As for evidence, there have been numerous videos posted and other social media posts from people admitting their change of mind, erroneous vote as well as media interviews.
Probably not enough to make a difference on their own, but it's a reasonable thought that if these people don't mind announcing to the nation that they made a mistake, how many are keeping it to themselves.
And then there's the evidence from those staunch labour left wingers in the police.
