India and the Wars

Old Jan 30th 2019, 5:22 pm
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There are maybe two or three sources you could consult regarding capital punishment in British era India.Firstly there are The India Office Records, which were once held in an old dusty building on Blackfriars Road, which are now safely in The British Library on Euston Road open to consultation if you have a readers card. Second source would be Regimental Records and because its the The Indian Army who are looking after them they would be relatively intact and safe from the dreaded White Ant or Termites ! Most Indian regiments that were created either before The Raj, likes Skinners Horse are still in existence. St. James Church, just of Chandni Chowk In Old Delhi is still the regimental Church- but then regiment itself is largely Hindu.Civil records are another thing entirely.I would hazard a guess that perhaps 80% are gone, either through neglect or accident.I once travelled through the old Writers Building in Calcutta 30 years ago, which dates back to 1780 or thereabouts.It was full of shelves stacked up with documents that slowly being transformed into confetti.I would be very surprised though that anything to do with capital offences in the armed services would simply go walk about and disappear.Records to do with Indian soldiers who served on The Western Front and who were executed have gone missing in suspicious circumstances.In 1915 47 were shot for mutiny in Singapore and the documents relating to this are intact.Capital punishment in British India was used very sparingly as far as i know in regards of the armed forces.Civil usage was another matter because justice depended were you were.Hyderabad had its own police, army and airforce until 1947. The British were very pragmatic and shooting or hanging serving members could and did undermine morale and memories of The Mutiny were still very much alive.In the 1930s The British armed personnel were roughly 37,000 at one point and India was nearly self governing by this point.Hindu regiments were very loyal to their traditions and proud of their connections to The Crown.The 47 who were shot in Singapore were Muslims...Hope this helped.
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Old Jan 30th 2019, 5:57 pm
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Off Topic-----
Hello PJ ---A long time since you posted! Hope all is well with you.
I sometimes wonder what happened to all those who used to post on the Goa threads--- Indiamike site?
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Old Jan 31st 2019, 3:47 pm
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I was in India lst January but not in Goa. Spent time in Calcutta and travelled up The Hooghly to Chandan Nagar by train (cost 12 Rupees ) to have a look at the old French enclave but sadly there was nothing left but a sad old Catholic Church and a sleepy town dominated by a college. Crossed the river and we had a look at the abandoned Jute Mills. They are huge in area.The walls go on for miles and strangely they are heavily guarded by security personnel so i think they are going to redeveloped into housing for an ever expanding Calcutta.Its gives you an idea though how much trade came out of India pre container days because all cargo was wrapped in jute and most of it came from here."What i found very interesting though was the size of the mansions on the banks of the river.Massive buildings with hundreds of rooms.Some abandoned but most were lived in.Travelled through Barrackpore, where Mangal Pandey was hanged, then we got off the train to catch the underground at Dum Dum Junction back to Sudder Street off Chow Ringee, now renamed The Esplanade.I love Calcutta even if its now off the backpacker circuit wandering around the back streets looking at the fading grandeur of old imperialistic calcutta.I like Bengalis very artistic people who love books-unlike the business orientated Marathas of Maharashtra....There is a movement going on though in India which i find disturbing.Revisionism on a huge scale.The Thugs of Hindustan, a film glorifying the cult of Thugee as a movement against the British.The Thugs operated only against Indian Pilgrims travelling the pilgrim routes.The Rani of Jhansi is another film doing the rounds that has borrowed heavily from Hollywood's tendency to rewrite history John Wayne fashion.Went to Hyderabad and thought i was in Singapore ! It was so modern and un-indian could not believe it.Police very polite, no cows wandering around.Sky scrapers everywhere with a shopping mall every kilometre.Brand new airport with a road straight into the centre of the city.But then we travelled to Aurangabad and Ellora and boy was we back in dusty smokey potholed India i was used to ! Had to stay in Bombay for 6 days because my health was not good.Im nearly 70 now and the arteries are not what they used to be......stayed at Bentleys and they looked after us.Colaba though is changing like the rest of India.The Gate is now fenced off but walking along Marine Drive was a treat.They are seriously renovating all the old Raj Art Deco buildings because Heritage is now big business in Bombay.For anyone reading this i prefer to use the old names of cities because thats what im used to.
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Old Jan 31st 2019, 5:18 pm
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Originally Posted by prestonjohn
I was in India lst January but not in Goa. Spent time in Calcutta and travelled up The Hooghly to Chandan Nagar by train (cost 12 Rupees ) to have a look at the old French enclave but sadly there was nothing left but a sad old Catholic Church and a sleepy town dominated by a college. Crossed the river and we had a look at the abandoned Jute Mills. They are huge in area.The walls go on for miles and strangely they are heavily guarded by security personnel so i think they are going to redeveloped into housing for an ever expanding Calcutta.Its gives you an idea though how much trade came out of India pre container days because all cargo was wrapped in jute and most of it came from here."What i found very interesting though was the size of the mansions on the banks of the river.Massive buildings with hundreds of rooms.Some abandoned but most were lived in.Travelled through Barrackpore, where Mangal Pandey was hanged, then we got off the train to catch the underground at Dum Dum Junction back to Sudder Street off Chow Ringee, now renamed The Esplanade.I love Calcutta even if its now off the backpacker circuit wandering around the back streets looking at the fading grandeur of old imperialistic calcutta.I like Bengalis very artistic people who love books-unlike the business orientated Marathas of Maharashtra....There is a movement going on though in India which i find disturbing.Revisionism on a huge scale.The Thugs of Hindustan, a film glorifying the cult of Thugee as a movement against the British.The Thugs operated only against Indian Pilgrims travelling the pilgrim routes.The Rani of Jhansi is another film doing the rounds that has borrowed heavily from Hollywood's tendency to rewrite history John Wayne fashion.Went to Hyderabad and thought i was in Singapore ! It was so modern and un-indian could not believe it.Police very polite, no cows wandering around.Sky scrapers everywhere with a shopping mall every kilometre.Brand new airport with a road straight into the centre of the city.But then we travelled to Aurangabad and Ellora and boy was we back in dusty smokey potholed India i was used to ! Had to stay in Bombay for 6 days because my health was not good.Im nearly 70 now and the arteries are not what they used to be......stayed at Bentleys and they looked after us.Colaba though is changing like the rest of India.The Gate is now fenced off but walking along Marine Drive was a treat.They are seriously renovating all the old Raj Art Deco buildings because Heritage is now big business in Bombay.For anyone reading this i prefer to use the old names of cities because thats what im used to.
Hello, many thanks for your really interesting reply.
Many years since we visited Calcutta, not much sightseeing ever as usually visiting relatives. We once went there with the children by train from Mumbai, five of us in the 6 tier compartment, me on a top bunk. Discovered how the top sways---felt really sick!
Was also in Mumbai earlier this month ---I no longer like Mumbai, the traffic!!!! (Chennai my favourite 'big' city).
Our home town is changed so much---I think you have expressed views before!!---Now a 5 lane freeway from Goa is being built---and a new bridge already done. The beauty is gone, coming over the bridge can't even see the sea. Tagore beach is just rough sand and debris-----price of progress!!

Hope your arteries hold out----70 is the new 50!


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Old Feb 1st 2019, 10:00 am
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Originally Posted by prestonjohn
I was in India lst January but not in Goa. Spent time in Calcutta and travelled up The Hooghly to Chandan Nagar by train (cost 12 Rupees ) to have a look at the old French enclave but sadly there was nothing left but a sad old Catholic Church and a sleepy town dominated by a college. Crossed the river and we had a look at the abandoned Jute Mills. They are huge in area.The walls go on for miles and strangely they are heavily guarded by security personnel so i think they are going to redeveloped into housing for an ever expanding Calcutta.Its gives you an idea though how much trade came out of India pre container days because all cargo was wrapped in jute and most of it came from here."What i found very interesting though was the size of the mansions on the banks of the river.Massive buildings with hundreds of rooms.Some abandoned but most were lived in.Travelled through Barrackpore, where Mangal Pandey was hanged, then we got off the train to catch the underground at Dum Dum Junction back to Sudder Street off Chow Ringee, now renamed The Esplanade.I love Calcutta even if its now off the backpacker circuit wandering around the back streets looking at the fading grandeur of old imperialistic calcutta.I like Bengalis very artistic people who love books-unlike the business orientated Marathas of Maharashtra....There is a movement going on though in India which i find disturbing.Revisionism on a huge scale.The Thugs of Hindustan, a film glorifying the cult of Thugee as a movement against the British.The Thugs operated only against Indian Pilgrims travelling the pilgrim routes.The Rani of Jhansi is another film doing the rounds that has borrowed heavily from Hollywood's tendency to rewrite history John Wayne fashion.Went to Hyderabad and thought i was in Singapore ! It was so modern and un-indian could not believe it.Police very polite, no cows wandering around.Sky scrapers everywhere with a shopping mall every kilometre.Brand new airport with a road straight into the centre of the city.But then we travelled to Aurangabad and Ellora and boy was we back in dusty smokey potholed India i was used to ! Had to stay in Bombay for 6 days because my health was not good.Im nearly 70 now and the arteries are not what they used to be......stayed at Bentleys and they looked after us.Colaba though is changing like the rest of India.The Gate is now fenced off but walking along Marine Drive was a treat.They are seriously renovating all the old Raj Art Deco buildings because Heritage is now big business in Bombay.For anyone reading this i prefer to use the old names of cities because thats what im used to.
We are making our second visit to India returnjng next November for 3 weeks.
" Heritage " is now a buzz word in the hotel industry with older building being converted. not always that well and not offering the 4 and 5 star facikities many western and even Indian tourists expect , if TripAdvisor reviews are anything to go by.
We havecsayed in 16th century first and castles , 1930s homes of minor royal all showing a lot of faced ekegena e but preferred by those who like us have had enough of glass and concrete city hotels..
During our next visit we are staying in a Haveli in Varanasi, built in the early days of the last century ( hardly old ) by the Nepali royal family to house those who wanted to spend their last days in Varanasi., now a " heritage " hotel.

Revisionism is not unique to India, the 1857 mutiny may be renamed as part of the indeoendence struggle wh hich it clearly was not..
The local mutineers wanted to restore the old Moghul regime .
History books will probably ignore the fact that " loyal " Indian troops, and those from the rivals of those local rulers supporting the mutiny were the reason why it was defeated.
The role of the Inla in ww2 will be rewritten even though it was regarded by its Axis masters and ineffective and inept..
Bose is now a national hero although he was an admirer of Hitler and Nazism, the creators of the holocaust...
Historical revisionism is just part if the trend towards growing nationalism and popularist, whose negative effects we can see around the world..
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Old Feb 1st 2019, 10:57 am
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EMR ----many of the hotels you mention were properties of the ex-rulers of the Princely States, turned into commercial projects when Indira Gandhi removed the Privy Purse.

Chandra Bose is hardly 'now' a national hero although places are named after him just as they are named after Indira etc. He is only mentioned in a 'historical' sense ----although recently some of the papers relating to his death were declassified at the family request----they didn't reveal much.
His aim was independence and he is honoured for that--he was an admirer of the authoritarian methods of Hitler (and Japan and Russia) although not their racist ideologies etc. He was a 'feminist'---- Congress party supported him in his socialist aims.

I am not sure why you would condemn the wish of a country to be independent???

(I think your dismissal of the role of the VCs, the deaths of Indians in WW1 and 2 are an insult)

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Old Feb 1st 2019, 5:21 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ----many of the hotels you mention were properties of the ex-rulers of the Princely States, turned into commercial projects when Indira Gandhi removed the Privy Purse.

Chandra Bose is hardly 'now' a national hero although places are named after him just as they are named after Indira etc. He is only mentioned in a 'historical' sense ----although recently some of the papers relating to his death were declassified at the family request----they didn't reveal much.
His aim was independence and he is honoured for that--he was an admirer of the authoritarian methods of Hitler (and Japan and Russia) although not their racist ideologies etc. He was a 'feminist'---- Congress party supported him in his socialist aims.

I am not sure why you would condemn the wish of a country to be independent???

(I think your dismissal of the role of the VCs, the deaths of Indians in WW1 and 2 are an insult)
Once again Bipat either you are being deliberate provocative or just plain ignorant.
Where in my post is anything derogatory about those from the subcontinent who fought throughout the war for the allies.
The INLA fought for the Japanese and were recruited from prison camps to fight for the Germans.
Time you went back to Specsavers.
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Old Feb 1st 2019, 5:43 pm
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Originally Posted by EMR
Once again Bipat either you are being deliberate provocative or just plain ignorant.
Where in my post is anything derogatory about those from the subcontinent who fought throughout the war for the allies.
The INLA fought for the Japanese and were recruited from prison camps to fight for the Germans.
Time you went back to Specsavers.
INLA------reading quickly I thought you had misspelt "India". (You frequently have a spelling problem!)

You mean the INA-----Indian National Army------INA.



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Old Feb 1st 2019, 5:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
INLA------reading quickly I thought you had misspelt "India". (You frequently have a spelling problem!)

You mean the INA-----Indian National Army------INA.
I accept your apology ,
I have also seen it referred to as the Indian national liberation army..
Hiltler was so dismissive of them that in the last few months of the year he issued an instruction to disarm them as their guns etc were needed by the German army..
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Old Feb 1st 2019, 6:16 pm
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Originally Posted by EMR
I accept your apology ,
I have also seen it referred to as the Indian national liberation army..
Hiltler was so dismissive of them that in the last few months of the year he issued an instruction to disarm them as their guns etc were needed by the German army..

I was not apologising it was/is known as the INA.

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Old Feb 1st 2019, 9:51 pm
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Originally Posted by Bipat
Were you there during 'British India'? How can you personally know any "facts".

A disobedient native ordinary soldier was of no importance why would there be a record of any 'punishments'. Those there knew what would happen.

I suggest it is you that needs to do some reading.
Also there are still many alive with their own and their parents memories----talk to them!!!

If you call my description of your self "rambling" ---why to you excuse the British at every opportunity?
Bipat , as usual a confusing post- first you say one cant know much without speaking to those who were there, then you suggest doing reading. And your prior posts indicate that speaking only to Indians can give facts, as talking to British who were there you discount whatever their observations were.- I had parents , uncles and great uncles all who were in British India, but when I quoted their views you indicated because they were British that their opinions didn't count. By your logic there is no reason to study history or consider different points of view.

Maybe India should just return to its traditions and ways before the British came, the 'paradise' of the later Mughall Empire.
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Old Feb 1st 2019, 10:04 pm
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Originally Posted by scot47
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/o...Qa0adlhCbPdFP8

gives an insight that EMR, Lord Mountbatten and Churchill could never iunderstand.
hardly an article that oozes objectivity.

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Old Feb 1st 2019, 10:17 pm
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Originally Posted by morpeth
Bipat , as usual a confusing post- first you say one cant know much without speaking to those who were there, then you suggest doing reading. And your prior posts indicate that speaking only to Indians can give facts, as talking to British who were there you discount whatever their observations were.- I had parents , uncles and great uncles all who were in British India, but when I quoted their views you indicated because they were British that their opinions didn't count. By your logic there is no reason to study history or consider different points of view.

Maybe India should just return to its traditions and ways before the British came, the 'paradise' of the later Mughall Empire.
Morpeth I was replying to EMR who seems to be under the opinion that British soldiers (with guns) did not exist in British India. I did not say 'only Indians can give facts'. I have said only Indians can give ;'facts' about how their own lives were affected.
Yourself and EMR seem to think only the British can give genuine observations, with Indians it is "folk memory" or "over the wall" gossip!!

As I pointed out I know that soldiers existed complete with guns- in our town (that I have just left)---I know the man who bought their barracks!!!! I am British!! So I am sure therefore you can both believe me!!

(Would the UK like to return to its traditions of 150 years ago?)


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Old Feb 1st 2019, 10:38 pm
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Originally Posted by morpeth
hardly an article that oozes objectivity.
I thought you would approve of this article as it is pro-Remain!!
Yes he exaggerates and is inaccurate as regards Mountbatten's employment, however are you saying that the Radcliffe line- border was 'thought out and sensible'????
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Old Feb 2nd 2019, 7:19 am
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Bipat
I was not apologising it was/is known as the INA.
Of course not Bipat, you did not claim I insulted those who fought for the allies.
It was just my imagination, not your words in your post.
I apologise for not being able to read what you wrote..
I never claimed that British soldiers with guns did not exist in Indai.
Why do you bring every discussion down to a he said ,she said level instead of dealing with facts..

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