India and the Wars

Old Feb 6th 2019, 6:31 am
  #166  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ----Could I suggest you read Rule 1 of this Forum.

Your remark about the worlds population I presume you are referring to USA, Australia, New Zealand where the original population were subdued and practically eliminated.

Goa was just used as a trading platform by Portugal. The population of Goa were not Portuguese people.
Look at a map of the world----where is Portugal----where is Goa?? The population were Indian they spoke Konkani and Marathi.

'Invasion' which invaders allow the 'invaded population' to immediately enter into their Government??
There was little resistance as the majority as I said were not Portuguese people.

I know what you said about Nehru. The timing may be as you said but not the reason.
The people living in the Falklands were British, they didn't get there by torturing/ brutalising the occupants the situation was quite different.

Again and again you make excuses for the Empire colonisation while at the same time 'accusing' Brexiters of being of the same mind.
No excuses just facts, one fact being clear to anyone who tries to debate with you, you do not know your facts from your elbows...
History is History, one day you will wake up and understand that..
If goans were so happy to be under the rule of Delhi, which in their history they never were , whyare have so many left to ,live in the UK and elsewhere.
Rule from Delhi is just as foreign and unconnected to their heritage as rule from Lisbon....


I see your pathetic insult yet again egarding my remainer views , just .pathetic ...,


Last edited by EMR; Feb 6th 2019 at 6:37 am.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 7:23 am
  #167  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
No excuses just facts, one fact being clear to anyone who tries to debate with you, you do not know your facts from your elbows...
History is History, one day you will wake up and understand that..
If goans were so happy to be under the rule of Delhi, which in their history they never were , whyare have so many left to ,live in the UK and elsewhere.
Rule from Delhi is just as foreign and unconnected to their heritage as rule from Lisbon....


I see your pathetic insult yet again egarding my remainer views , just .pathetic ...,
EMR----you know absolutely nothing first hand about India. How do you know what the Goans wanted? Do you have Goan relatives, do you have a Goan descendant spouse? do you live 12 miles south of Goa?
Do you know about the North South divide of India. All South Indians complain about Delhi!! Do you know about the fuss when Hindi was made a national language?

However they are all Indians, do you really believe Goans would want to go back to the poverty of Portuguese rule. Do you actually know about the history-'-the torture, forced conversions etc. They now 'rule' themselves with also membership of the Government--they are 'in' Delhi!!!!!

Why does anyone move to the UK? You could ask why did they not move to Portugal?

Why is it insulting to point out that you are a Remainer. You must admit Empire 2 is a constant remark!

Last edited by Bipat; Feb 6th 2019 at 7:39 am.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 7:48 am
  #168  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR----you know absolutely nothing first hand about India. How do you know what the Goans wanted? Do you have Goan relatives, do you have a Goan descendant spouse? do you live 12 miles south of Goa?
Do you know about the North South divide of India. All South Indians complain about Delhi!! Do you know about the fuss when Hindi was made a national language?

However they are all Indians, do you really believe Goans would want to go back to the poverty of Portuguese rule. Do you actually know about the history-'-the torture, forced conversions etc. They now 'rule' themselves with also membership of the Government--they are 'in' Delhi!!!!!

Why does anyone move to the UK? You could ask why did they not move to Portugal?

Why is it insulting to point out that you are a Remainer. You must admit Empire 2 is a constant remark!
Given that the Gians were given the same chances for self determi action as all those who live in territories occupied or acquired by the Indian republic your question is irrelevant...
Now if you can provide me with details if the referendum offered to the inhabitants of Go a with the choice of becoming an I dependent self governing country or accepting rule from Delhi we can bring this discussion to an end.
I am assuming that the Indian invading army did not carry guns as we know according to you this would symbolise their occupation of a sovereign territory belonging to another nation..
The majority who move to Portugal do not do so for economic reasons unlike migrants from India seeking a better life with more opportunities for personal enrichment..

Your posts supporting brexit shows the same lack of acceptance of facts and confused state of mind as does this discussion..
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:11 am
  #169  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Given that the Gians were given the same chances for self determi action as all those who live in territories occupied or acquired by the Indian republic your question is irrelevant...
Now if you can provide me with details if the referendum offered to the inhabitants of Go a with the choice of becoming an I dependent self governing country or accepting rule from Delhi we can bring this discussion to an end.
I am assuming that the Indian invading army did not carry guns as we know according to you this would symbolise their occupation of a sovereign territory belonging to another nation..
The majority who move to Portugal do not do so for economic reasons unlike migrants from India seeking a better life with more opportunities for personal enrichment..

Your posts supporting brexit shows the same lack of acceptance of facts and confused state of mind as does this discussion..
(I will find details of the discussed referendum later. I will find a link).
Could I suggest that you describe how Goa could survive as an independant country?
Do you know the size etc.? Goans are members of the Indian Government have been Ministers of State.
Tell me in what way are Goans any different from those living in neighbouring Karnataka in looks, language, inheritance, history etc. etc.
At least you have stopped considering them as Portuguese.
The Indian army, carried guns, the opponents were the Portuguese officials.

EMR by 1960 idependence was achieved by most of the colonies of Africa and Asia
from their European Colonial rulers. Goa was 1961 about time don't you think?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_...oll#Referendum

Last edited by Bipat; Feb 6th 2019 at 8:40 am.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:48 am
  #170  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Another bizarre post.

1) If the British were ruling then they were a major factor! A 30 bed hospital!!!!

3) Remember there was education and literature when the British were still living in caves.

5) My eyes are quite open----I actually see what is happening, not just read books written by people some of which have never set foot in the place.

(Why should politics have evolved directly from the Mughal Empire---what was British politics like in the 16th century?)

6) You again compare with Hitler-----There is no excuse for this remark Morpeth---

Goans were brown/Indian people they were not Portuguese!
OH's community fled from there, tortured etc. their history has been researched but with difficulty due to destroyed libraries etc. Christians also fled.
Salazar would not agree to leave peacefully, had every chance to do so.
At least the British did that!
Goans are Indian, they take part in Indian government ---there could be a Goan PM.

Morpeth I can see the good that came from British rule-----you refuse to see that occupation by a foreign power is essentially negative and that those that remember it will not agree with your views.

You mentioned Hitler ( again) -----just imagine if WW2 had ended differently ---UK would be under occupied and German rule----the economy would be flourishing.
Would you be making the same excuses for 'foreign' occupation??
‘Another bizarre post.’

Only to someone with a closed mind.


“1) If the British were ruling then they were a major factor! A 30 bed hospital!!!!”

You seem unable to answer the issues raised by either EMR or myself, or don’t take the time to read the posts you respond to. I wrote clearly that there were various aspects to the famine, and without careful review of the various factors hard to arrive at a conclusion. You seem to be unaware that weather can and does change, that famine occurred in areas not run by the British, or even if British actions were partly or even major causes, why.

3) Remember there was education and literature when the British were still living in caves.

Totally irrelevant to how the modern intellectual, scientific revolution occurred and where, and how the modern university emerged. If Indian education and science so advanced in the 18th century and sowed any indication it could or would match Western advances by all means I look forward to hearing about.


5) My eyes are quite open----I actually see what is happening, not just read books written by people some of which have never set foot in the place.

You reject evidence from people who lived in India, are Indian and actually have studied topics in depth- then see an India today that would be unimaginable without the experience of British rule. Seems pretty closed-minded.


(Why should politics have evolved directly from the Mughal Empire---what was British politics like in the 16th century?)

Please do enlighten use about the long tradition before or during the Mughal Empire of the intuitions and developments that led to the institutions and infrastructure that developed from British rule.

6) You again compare with Hitler-----There is no excuse for this remark Morphett---



India used force to take over Goa, Hitler used force to take over Sudetenland. Both used similar reasoning.

Goans were brown/Indian people they were not Portuguese!



Agaon, irrelevant to the stated comment-India used force to enforce its will. Any occupying power usually develops some claim of legitimacy.

Morpeth I can see the good that came from British rule-----you refuse to see that occupation by a foreign power is essentially negative and that those that remember it will not agree with your views.





This is why you apparently have a problem wih logical analysis you start with a conclusion, then only accept evidence that fits a conclusion you have already reached. Second you pprenetly have not considered instances in history where people welcomed foreign power- the peasants in the Ukraine lid flower on the roads in front of German tanks rolling through.

You mentioned Hitler ( again) -----just imagine if WW2 had ended differently ---UK would be under occupied and German rule----the economy would be flourishing.
Would you be making the same excuses for 'foreign' occupation??


Again the language issue- since you view the British rules as part of some morality play, dispassionate objectivity doesn’t come into play.

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 8:52 am
  #171  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ----let us explain to you in simple terms that you can understand.

1) The words "Colonial Genocide" were used by the author of the article about the Madras Famine. OK ---got that? (I will read the previous posts and find the reference).

2) Morpeth equated India with the Nazis in rescuing part of their country from colonial occupation.-----got that?

3) I asked Morpeth if he would have the same view if the UK was occupied by a foreign power after the last war-----got that?

I did not compare British rule with the Nazis.
Bipat I simply pointed out the facts that Hitler used similar reasoning in his takeover of Sudentenland as you use for justifying the takeover of Goa- and in fact if one looks at the history of the two areas Hitler had a stronger justification. doesnt mean I approve of either use of force, just pointing out in essence no difference.

I
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:03 am
  #172  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
EMR ----Could I suggest you read Rule 1 of this Forum.

Your remark about the worlds population I presume you are referring to USA, Australia, New Zealand where the original population were subdued and practically eliminated.

Goa was just used as a trading platform by Portugal. The population of Goa were not Portuguese people.
Look at a map of the world----where is Portugal----where is Goa?? The population were/are Indian they spoke Konkani and Marathi.

'Invasion'---- which invaders allow the 'invaded population' to immediately enter into their Government??
There was little resistance as the majority as I said were not Portuguese people.

I know what you said about Nehru. The timing may be as you said but not the reason.
The people living in the Falklands were British, they didn't get there by torturing/ brutalising the occupants the situation was quite different.

Again and again you make excuses for the Empire colonisation while at the same time 'accusing' Brexiters of being of the same mind.

Next time you go to India for a tour---go to Goa and look at the people ----ask yourself ---are they Indian or Portuguese!!
Bipat you may have had a very limited reading of history- EMT's comments could be applied worldwide about current ruler being different than those a few hundred years ago.Of course you come up with usual a response that avoids the point of EMR's comments.

Throughout history countries have taken over others. Just as India as done to various territories.Your justification based on race of the invader and conquered pretty flimsy, and in an extreme a dangerous philosophy of justification of force based on race.

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:10 am
  #173  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Bipat I simply pointed out the facts that Hitler used similar reasoning in his takeover of Sudentenland as you use for justifying the takeover of Goa- and in fact if one looks at the history of the two areas Hitler had a stronger justification. doesnt mean I approve of either use of force, just pointing out in essence no difference.
M
I
Morpeth from what I understand Sudetenland people were from several origins with different languages.
Goans were a homogenous group of Indian people speaking Marathi and Konkani, of mainly different religions from Portugal (of course many Christians descendants of those of the many forced conversions). Portuguese did not settle there to form a large community it was used a trade base.
The force was against Portugal not Goans.
They now rule themselves and have a part in the Government of all India. What have you got against that?


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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:40 am
  #174  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by morpeth
Bipat you may have had a very limited reading of history- EMT's comments could be applied worldwide about current ruler being different than those a few hundred years ago.Of course you come up with usual a response that avoids the point of EMR's comments.

Throughout history countries have taken over others. Just as India as done to various territories.Your justification based on race of the invader and conquered pretty flimsy, and in an extreme a dangerous philosophy of justification of force based on race.

​​​​​​
It is not based on "race". It is about the colonisation of a small group of people for the purpose of trade by a far off nation to the detriment of the indigenous population.
Why did the British leave eventually, the French peacefully and maintain a good relationship?
Morpeth I have a great indepth reading of Goan history, as I said our particular community come from there, after fleeing Kashmir from the Mughals
Any research by the community members has been hindered as I have said by libraries and documents burned.
Do you approve of this? Do you approve of the torture and forced conversions?
Yes all of it OK, with you but not the release into self government and being part of the government of India.

The chief Minister of Goa is a a Goan!!

Last edited by Bipat; Feb 6th 2019 at 10:12 am.
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:46 am
  #175  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth from what I understand Sudetenland people were from several origins with different languages.
Goans were a homogenous group of Indian people speaking Marathi and Konkani, of mainly different religions from Portugal (of course many Christians descendants of those of the many forced conversions). Portuguese did not settle there to form a large community it was used a trade base.
The force was against Portugal not Goans.
They now rule themselves and have a part in the Government of all India. What have you got against that?
Hitlers excuse for taking over Czech territory was the presence of Sudetan Germans, rather like India and Gains..

You excuse for invasion was the events of 100s years ago ., , pretty flimsy to say the least, in facts desperate excuse of an illegal act..

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:52 am
  #176  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
(I will find details of the discussed referendum later. I will find a link).
Could I suggest that you describe how Goa could survive as an independant country?
Do you know the size etc.? Goans are members of the Indian Government have been Ministers of State.
Tell me in what way are Goans any different from those living in neighbouring Karnataka in looks, language, inheritance, history etc. etc.
At least you have stopped considering them as Portuguese.
The Indian army, carried guns, the opponents were the Portuguese officials.

EMR by 1960 idependence was achieved by most of the colonies of Africa and Asia
from their European Colonial rulers. Goa was 1961 about time don't you think?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_...oll#Referendum
I suggest you find a big book of the British Empire, the French Empire and look at when their colonies were granted indeoendence or gained it by other means.
It would prove again that you know very little before posting.
Only in India were territories not granted the opportunity for self determination but absorbed by force into their larger neighbour,
Goa did not gain independence, .



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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:58 am
  #177  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
Hitlers excuse for taking over Czech territory was the presence of Sudetan Germans, rather like India and Gains..

You excuse for invasion was the events of 100s years ago ., , pretty flimsy to say the least, in facts desperate excuse of an illegal act..
It wasn't "presence of" they were all indigenous Indian people.
As I said above, to Morpeth, I assume you are happy with the forced conversions, the libraries burned, the torture etc. Why did so many, those who had the resources flee to surrounding areas?

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 9:59 am
  #178  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
Morpeth from what I understand Sudetenland people were from several origins with different languages.
Goans were a homogenous group of Indian people speaking Marathi and Konkani, of mainly different religions from Portugal (of course many Christians descendants of those of the many forced conversions). Portuguese did not settle there to form a large community it was used a trade base.
The force was against Portugal not Goans.
They now rule themselves and have a part in the Government of all India. What have you got against that?
You have as always missed the point- stating that India used force with the same reasoning as Hitler.

I am unsure if I have ever stated Indian rule has been a negative, though as I sent links some Goans seem to think so but as you say a distinct minority

Simply your idea that fore is justified if it involves Indians but not others is truly bizarre logic. Same oes for Hyderabad and arguably Kashmir.

.

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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:02 am
  #179  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by Bipat
It wasn't "presence of" they were all indigenous Indian people.
As I said above, to Morpeth, I assume you are happy with the forced conversions, the libraries burned, the torture etc. Why did so many, those who had the resources flee to surrounding areas?
Now you are being childish- no one even remotely justified or supported torture.

India used force as it has elsewhere..
.​​​​​​
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Old Feb 6th 2019, 10:03 am
  #180  
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Default Re: India and the Wars

Originally Posted by EMR
I suggest you find a big book of the British Empire, the French Empire and look at when their colonies were granted indeoendence or gained it by other means.
It would prove again that you know very little before posting.
Only in India were territories not granted the opportunity for self determination but absorbed by force into their larger neighbour,
Goa did not gain independence, .
Look at a map India is not a 'neighbour', Goa is part of India.
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