What planet are you on man

[QUOTE=Douglas M;5162970]

FN lessees definitely dont have 99 year leases, they have maximum 5 year leases as required by FEMA. Unfortunately FNs have been led to believe that they effectively have perpetual leases, in that they have the right to roll over their short term leases indefinitely. As a result of that misinformation, many FNs have paid twenty or thirty times what the short term lease is worth.

Hi All

Can somebody please explain regarding leases, what happens if you are asked by your developer to now sign up for a lease instead of the freehold (you originally thought you had paid for) at the time you could still get X visas and do your residency and apply for your deeds. Are you saying that 5 years is the maximum time and it cannot be rolled over according to the Fema rules? What happens to the property after the 5 years if you do sign for a lease, does it revert back to the persons holding the deeds ie the developer/builder after the 5 years even if you hold the Sale Agreement? Bit confused with this as I have read somewhere on a posting that some Acron customers have been doing this roll on lease for 15 years!!!!

Regards

[QUOTE=Kinrara;5195624] what you have is a gentleman's agreement that the developer (e.g. Acron) will keep on rolling over your lease (a new lease is created at each rollover, so a lease never lasts more than the permitted 5 years).
You probably also have an Agreement of Sale, which if you are lucky and got it before August 2006 has been Registered (otherwise it has probably been notarised) [Douglas is of the opinion that this agreement is illegal, I don't agree]. If, in addition, you occupy the property then imho you do in fact have some protection under Indian property law.
You don't have a freehold that you can sell but with the agreement of the freeholder (Acron?) you could give up what rights you do have, allowing Acron to sell the property to someone else and re-imburse you.
It is some time since I read it all, but iirc there is a clause in FEMA / FAQ-Answer to the effect that deposit/ earnest money refunds can be re-patriated (though not any profit).
hth AndyD 8-)#

[QUOTE=Kinrara;5195624] Hi Kinrara

I can't fully explain the leasing issue but having read much on this site I am now pretty much aware of the implications.
I am in the process of buying an apartment in Siolim through Churchills and initially was under the impression that it was for a freehold subject to a few trivial formalities (eg 183 continuous residency). I now understand that there is little chance of ever owning the freehold and I would effectively be under the mercy of an unknown landlord for the duration of my "ownership".
This is not acceptable to me and so I am pulling out and have instructed churchills to sell my interest in the property; currently over £12K.
Sadly I entered this deal a little ignorant and very blinkered. If I knew then what I know now I would not have invested in Goa.
I am sure one of the more knowledgable site members will fully enlighten you....cue to you Douglas.

Good Luck and keep your cash in your wallet.

regards

dickylewis

[QUOTE=a_f_d;5195734] Hi Andy

Thanks for replying.

We paid for our Sale Agreement Dec 05, how do we know if it has been registered or notarised? Is there some way of telling on our Sales Agreement? We are also (visa permitting), hoping to stay in our apartment for around 9 months this season, so hopefully as you say will have some protection under Indian property law, what ever that is? We are just going to have to go out and try to live and enjoy our apartment and our dream, it does us no good worrying , we can't change what the outcome will be.

Regards

[QUOTE=dickylewis;5195769] Hi dickylewis

Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately, too late for me to keep my cash in my purse! Spent my savings Dec 05, I was purchasing a freehold sales agreement, because at that time you could apply for an x visa, do your 183 days, gain residency and your deeds! But as you now know the goal posts have been moved and I am stuck in the middle of this mess, so am looking for any remedies/options suitable to my case.

Good luck in getting your money back from Churchills.

Regards

[QUOTE=a_f_d;5195734] Hi Andy,

Whilst i agree with much of what you say (although i think its a bit of a grey area re: if entering into an Agreement of Sale when non resident is considered to be legal or not).
However, for those of us who have already paid in full for 'our' properties and stated 'property purchase' as the reason for the transfer(s), then i wonder if its too late for us to repatriate our money on the grounds that it was a 'lease deposit'(?)

Am i right in assuming that the clause you were refering to is as follows (from the RBI FAQs?:

Q.28: ''Can refund of application/earnest money/purchase consideration made by the house building agencies/seller on account of non-allotment of flat/plot/cancellation of bookings/deals for purchase of residential/commercial property, together with interest, if any (net of income tax payable thereon) be credited to NRE account?''

A:'' Yes, provided original payment was made by way of inward remittance or by debit to NRE/FCNR (B) account. For this purpose no permission of RBI is required and they may approach the authorised dealer directly in the matter. (Please refer to A.P. (DIR Series) Circular No.46 dated November 12, 2002).''
Regards
TDK

Am i right in assuming that the clause you were refering to is as follows (from the RBI FAQs?:

Q.28: ''Can refund of application/earnest money/purchase consideration made by the house building agencies/seller on account of non-allotment of flat/plot/cancellation of bookings/deals for purchase of residential/commercial property, together with interest, if any (net of income tax payable thereon) be credited to NRE account?''

yes, your 'reference library' is obviously better organised than mine!
Note the types of account mentioned - I think these are the sort of accounts likely to be run by your developer - so they would remit the money for you. Given the volume of business likely to be done by e.g. Acron I don't think they would have much trouble.

AndyD 8-)#

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your confirmation/analysis, & i hope you'r right about the developers' accounts, but i guess it may depend on the individual developers.

Regards
TDK

[QUOTE=Kinrara;5195836] Hi Kinrara,

In Goa a notarised document has a purple circular ink stamp on each page stating "Notary Govt Of Goa (India)" and the name of the Notary Public, his registration number and "Division" which may be something like "Bardez Server Division", or could also be "Entire State Of Goa Panaji Goa".

On the back of the last page of a notarised document special postage size "Notarial Stamps" are stuck on with glue (these have the word "Notarial" on them and are of low rupee value - usually 4 stamps at 5 rupees each).These "postage stamps" are also franked with the ink stamp I described as above.

Further, on the back of the last page of the notarised document there should be another purple ink stamp which identifies the Notary, his location, qualifications, an identifying file number for the document, and the date of notarisation/certification.

Front and back pages (sometimes all pages) are signed in ink on top of the ink stamp marks by the Notary Public.

The identifying file number for the document is entered in a ledger book, along with your name and address, and you sign this. The purpose of this is to keep track and validate the authenticity of your notarisation. ( Replica ink stamps, counterfeit notary stamps, and forged signatures are occasionally an issue, and relatively popular in politics and business).

You may also have been asked to sign a receipt book for your payment, although this is quite unusual. Above the official amount, you will have paid another "think of a number and quadruple it" fee in cash which the Notary pockets. This is for his brief few minutes time and handwriting. I have found that this transaction can voluntarily become discounted (in line with what a Goan might pay) as your popularity with any particular Notary soars; perhaps an element of guilt, or bad karma, creeps in once you have been relentlessly fleeced.

In my experience, standards of adhering to these procedures are incredibly lax since on occasion your "notarisation" can be conducted while the Notary attends to another three clients, all across his desk with numerous papers all at the same time. I have often had to pull the assistants up about proper cross referencing in the ledger but am fobbed off in haste and told "it's all in the book" when it visibly isn't until I insist. Practices vary and can be high speed or snails pace; diligent or negligent.

Notarisation of FN documents is big business (as is xerox copying, and standing around unattended in offices) with exponential growth expected and, as you probably already know, a great distraction for those days and weeks when you just can't be bothered with the beach, the shops, or life in general.

You should know if your Sales Agreement has been notarised because you would (or, should??) have been there at the notarisation and you should have the original notarised document, and a folder full of back up notarised copies for submission upon request.

A "registered" Sales Agreement is laid out on "Stamp Paper". This has a banknote style coloured imprint which takes up the top third of each page with the words "India Non Judicial" and various rupee denominations on each page. Each Stamp Paper page has a code number. These papers are bought from vendors at licensed street kiosks/shops. (There is a healthy black market in Stamp paper forgeries also).

If it is correctly registered then the Sales Agreement will have been presented before the Sub Registrar. Each page bears a standard purple ink
stamp on which by hand will have been filled in a Serial Number, Place of vendor, Date, Value of Stamp, Name of Purchaser, Place of Residence, Purpose, Signature of vendor, Signature of Purchaser.

Further, every page is initialled by yourself and the vendor; the document as a whole is allocated a Serial number; and you will have written your name in full and signed in full (as will the vendor also) on the first page and subsequent pages such as the Survey Plan.

Each page also carries the ink frank of "The Seal Of The Sub Registrar Of Bardez " which is oval in shape and often crosses two pages. The document bears the witnesses signatures, age, employment, antecedent and address.

Again, all this is cross referenced into ledgers at the Sub Registrars Office into which you will have signed, along with all your other details regards location, date, purpose, address, weight, inside leg measurement, bra cup size, favourite drink, marital status etc., etc.,.....

If you get to the Sales Deed stage the vendor and the purchaser each give fingerprints of each hand, alongside a passport photograph which is also witnessed and signed by all parties.

Sorry, and I don't intend to be mean, but I don't see how "....staying in India for around 9 months this season..." will extend you any further protection under Indian property law?

Hope this helps. I'm sure tou should be able to recognise which document is which.

Kind regards

[QUOTE=babu1;5197833] Hi Babu
B****Y Hell, That's as clear as! Do you work for the Government?
Karma given for the humour
Tony P

babu1 said:
<a lot of detailed stuff - see above>
which leads to a number of felonious thoughts:
1) has anyone got a really good facsimile of the seal of the subregistrar?
2) the subregistrars ledgers are supposed to be computerised by now, and there are a lot of very clever computer people in India, many of whom are unemployed at any given time
3) ...

4) only joking ...

AndyD 8-)#

[QUOTE=TONY P;5198046] Hi Babu

Went through all that, got our fingers covered in ink and still :@@@@@ @@@
useless. Sorry depression set in again - we did have one hour of sun to-day.

[QUOTE=noni;5198076] au contraire - think positive:
you now have clear legal title to your property
the investigation is a formality
all petty inconveniences will soon be forgotten
if doubts creep in have another ...
cheers (_)? (_)?

AndyD 8-)#

Hi Andy

1. No Our seal of the subregistrar is "messy".

Now I am even more depressed - read the Affidavit.

No. 3 Affidavit
3. We say that we shall be responsible for all acts and consequences arising from the registration of said sale deeds, by Civil Registrar cum Sub-Registrar of Bardez.

4. We say that the Civil Registrar cum Sub-Registrar of Bardez shall not be responsible in any manner whatsoever in respect of registration of the above sale deed.

5. We say that the Civil Registrar cum Sub-Registrar shall not be answerable for any acts to the Government of Goa or Reserve Bank of India, on account of registration of the above sale deed.

In otherwords, another complete load of @@@@@@@@@ probably not worth the paper it is printed on, or the 28330 rups. paid
:cry_sm ile: