I should think that, that was probably the same thought the person who invented gunpowder had shortly before he said 'Pass that candle, I just want to see what happens if you heat this stuff up
Sometimes it is best just to leave well alone
TP

:curse::curse: Perhaps Douglas has exploded

Hope not gave him Karma too, can't waste it.
TP

Hi Noni,

Douglas has been doing a bit of work today, hence the delay in responding.

The agreement to sale can be silent with regard to the time permitted before executing the subsequent sale deed, or it can give a firm date, that matter is open to agreement between the parties concerned and will vary from case to case.

In my view, if the FN is not resident at the time of signing the agreement to sale, the agreement is invalid. It is therefor best to sign a lease as well, which a non resident FN can lawfully sign, in order to give the FN some connection with the property.

If the FN subsequently becomes resident (and the register is open) then the lease is scrapped and you lawfully sign and register the sales deed. So three documents in all in this scenario.

Second part now, not sure who is selling here and who is buying/leasing.

Was the first party a resident FN and did he sucessfully and legally register an agreement to sale and/or a sales deed.

Second question, was the person he gave the 99 year lease to a FN and was that FN resident at the time.

If you get back to me on those points, i will try and give you an answer.

regards

douglas

Hi Douglas,
The person was resident, (a wheeler dealer, car salesman type - just so you get the picture) The person "buying" was and is not a resident. So they have really "not bought" anything - a pig in a poke. But Joe Bloggs has his money, so he is happy.
Am I right!

I don't think anybody I know was a RESIDENT when they signed the Agreement of Sale.

Theoretically if you have a lease and the company go bust, do you loose everything?
Perhaps the sun will come out tomorrow and I will find something else to occupy my mind.

Thanks Noni.

Hi Douglas, & Remy & thanks for your responses but as i said i merely wish to refer to the Acron Lease to see if any of its clauses might be useful to me (or in a modified form), to edit into my current draft lease, so it was never my intention to blindly copy the Acron lease or even the draft lease that my lawyer has compiled on my behalf, but rather to refer to it as a comparative source.

Whilst i'd be the 1st to admit that i'm not the brightest kid on the block, nevertheless i think i have enough descrimination to work out which clauses (if any) would work in my favour from those that wouldn't.

I am also always open to (& very grateful to receive) constructive criticism, and advice, especially when it is offered with genuine concern, and a wish to benefit others, so if anyone can offer any alternative viable solutions to this predicament, (as oposed to regurgitating the obvious and making smug remarks such as:

'' Perpetual leases don't exist for FNs, except in the minds of the deluded and misinformed.'' etc etc - then i'd love to hear from you.

The very reason why i went to great lengths to obtain my residential permit a few years ago & intentionally met the 183 day stay criteria before i entered into my Agreement of Sale was because i had done a good ammount of research before hand and believed that i would be able to register the freehold title in my name (based on my residential status etc). I have also been fully aware of the RBI rule for some years now (that foreigners can ony take out a lease that does not exceed 5 years), which is another reason why i intended to register the freehold.

However, as i mentioned in my last post, the developer i 'bought' off has ignored my written request for a refund several months ago, which has left me with Hobsons choice so far as i can make out i.e. to TRY to register a 5 year Rolling Lease agreement. Obviously i fully understand that there is certainly no guarantee that the lease will be renewed after the 1st 5 years,(even if there is a short break of a week say between leases) which is why i wanted the freehold, but unless anyone can suggest a better idea, instead of just stating the obvious, then i feel that i have little alternative given the current situation. I would also be very interested to hear from any other foreigners who have successfully renewed their 5 year Leases in India (which i imagine there must be some, since it is an option offered by many developers to foreigners), even though it is obviously far riskier than freehold ownership.

Finally, as an after thought i wonder if it might be easier to be philosophical about cutting your losses (and to be critical/sarcastic towards others who find it harder to do so) when you aren't facing the prospect of losing Everything in the process, but can return to a nice house or atleast enough cash to start up again elsewhere when the s**t hits the fan(?)

Regards- TDK

Hi TDK,
Its great to know that you have done a bit of research and know what your getting yourself in to.
In your position its a case of 'pay your money,take your chances'
You have read the threads and posts so you know as much as i do.
I sympathise with your predicament as you have tried to comply with things the best you can.
I dont know what more to say only that I sincerely hope everything sorts itself out in the end. Maybe it will.


Kind Regards,
Remy

Hi Noni,

To summarise the info you have given me so far.

We have a resident FN, who presumably has registered a sales deed and is therefore the freeholder, lets call him Mr A.

Mr A then offers a non resident FN (called B) a 99 year lease on the same immovable property in india. Presumably there is a written document in existence and a consideration similar to the freehold price was paid from B to A. It is unlikely that the lease was registered.

If the above info is correct, both A and B have committed an illegal act as FEMA clearly limits the duration of a lease to a FN to 5 years.

Because it was an illegal act the lease agreement is invalid.

Mr A can do what he likes with the freehold, mortgage it, sell it, gift it and maybe even evict B from the property.

If A charged B somewhere near the freehold price, he is probably guilty of fraud.

Get back to me if any of the facts i have based this opinion on are incorrect.

Part two now , i covered this in detail in my discussions with cornishman. If a co goes bust, the remaining assets are sold by by the receiver, freehold property could be one of those assets. It is unlikely that a new owner would honour another cos lease in this case. Even if they did they certainly wouldnt roll it over at the end of y 5.

regards

douglas

Yes you are right on all accounts. Mr. A is laughing all the way to the Bank. Mr. B. has not been able to register the deeds as register is closed.
I just happen to know of the people and was just interest to learn if I had learnt anything from these threads. Just exercising my brain.
As I thought Mr. B. owns nothing.

Hi Noni,

Even if the register was still open, B could not register a 99 year lease as a FN , only a max 5 year.

regards
douglas

Hi TDK.

Couple of references to douglas in your post i think, one direct, one indirect.

I and others are genuinely trying to help you, i have no vested interest on being on this site. I am sorry if i have come across as smug, that was never my intention.

As a retired professional i have extensive experience of dealing with investors who are experiencing loss. I also have considerable personal experience of loss, that comes with the territory. Total loss is better than partial loss when trying to understand these things, no plan B means you come face to face with yourself much sooner.

I dont particularly like the situation i am in with regard to goa, but i am dealing with it a lot better than you are.That should tell you something.

Offering platitudes and commiseration i will leave to others, they may be comforting but wont move things forward. All i have been trying to do throughout is to bring you (and others) to accept the situation as it is, you are not an easy subject.

For example, If you understand and accept that perpetual leases dont exist as you strongly imply above, why are you repeatedly attempting to draft one?

Once you have acceptance, then you will be able to move forward into understanding and some kind of solution.

Who knows, if you can come through this and learn some more about yourself and how the game works, you too may be able to make more money than you lose over time and then losses will be just another chapter in this fascinating story.

Then you may go even further and realise that attachment and desire are the major cause of unhappiness. Then you can go further still and make even more money if you wish, because you will have become a money making machine by virtue of your detachment. But by then you will have no need to do the very thing that you first set out to do.

If at some stage in the future you arrive at the acceptance point and i am still around and you wish me to be involved please let me know.

regards
douglas

Hi Remy, and just to say Thanks very much for your kind words and good wishes, which i really appreciate as have been going through mental melt down lately! I don't seek or expect the sympathy vote, but at times like this its still much appreciated to have some moral support so thanks again

Hi TDK

Your more than welcome.
I have a lot of friends in your predicament and its simply not right.
As i have said on another post, I believe the restrictions that are in place to stop FNs buying in Goa are wrong and outdated and must be relaxed. Maybe they will...maybe they wont... nobody seems to know.

What has happened to Douglas in Goa is a complete travesty and an absolute disgrace. Douglas just dosent want anybody else to have to go through what he did and therfore wants prospective buyers to be aware of the pitfalls.

I have a good mate who has a lovely 2 bedroom apartment next to mine and he now knows he may never get the title but as long as he gets to use it as a holiday home for life, hes happy. He and his wife spend 2 months at a time in Goa so he reckons its well worth it.

Its not all doom and gloom but what makes my blood boil is the fact that the property developers/estate agents are not disclosing all the true facts to FNs which is totally dis-honest .

Recently i have read that Goa and Malaysia are entering into a joint tourist drive venture. This is good as Malaysia allows FNs to purchase there, so maybe Goa will follow suit. Fingers Crossed.

Kind Regards,
Remy

Hi Douglas, thankyou very much for your last post which i really appreciate, & for my part i'm sorry for being defensive and for misreading the motivation behind some of your responses.

I think that although i had already come to very similar conclusions since last January (as to many of the points that you and others have raised over the last few months of these threads), maybe i needed your no B.S. approach for it to penetrate through to the core of my brain, and i admit that the last few weeks or so of reading these threads has been very compelling but also very unsettling for me as i guess my coping mechanism had lapsed a bit into denial & the 'Anything is possible in India' mode. Also while i have tried on & off over the last few years to study the various Indian rules and regs; alot of it is gobledeegook to my untrained mind!

Anyway like you i have a deep interest in metaphysics/spirituality and my main reason for trying to buy the flat was to use as a base so that i could focus most of my energy on my spiritual practice (mostly in other parts of India which i find most conducive to practice), & like you i shy away from the 'scene' in Goa and elsewhere so i'd planned to use my flat mainly off-season for retreat.

I do honestly admire how you have managed to detach your self from your own property troubles in Goa, and i totally agree with you that this experience offers an excellent opportunity for me to see (close up) how attachment and desire are the major cause of unhappiness (along with aversion and ignorance); but still it seems ironic (or maybe strangely perfect in the great scheme of things) that the thing i'm so afraid of losing (the flat) was to be used to support my practice/general health and well being & stability Inorder that hopefully eventually i would realise the correct view of Reality and develop genuine compassion (which necessarily includes transforming attachment, aversion & ignorance etc into their opposites).

To go back to your question about why i continue to try to go the 5 year Renewable Lease route, its just because (although i understand it may well never be renewed),i can only hope & i honestly don't know what better alternative option(s) there are, for now other than trying to flog it, but if i understand correctly then selling isn't an option for now (if i do it the legit way, which i'd much prefer). Also as i only have an Agreement of Sale right now, i just feel that the 5 year lease, would give me more security than what i have at the moment atleast (while i work on plan B- whatever that might be)!

i know you are busy with your own work etc but if you can see another way round it i would ofcourse be very grateful for your suggestions.

Well, Thanks again for your time and All the Best - TDK

Hi again Remy and Thanks very much for your post & thats intersting about Goa and Malaysia entering into a joint tourist drive venture, so it'll be interesting to see how that develops.

There was an Indian property developers show today in London and i toyed withthe idea of going and grilling them all with awkward Qs, but in the end just the thought of it zapped the life force out of me so i went somewhere else!

I totally agree with you about how unethical it is of those developers and agents (no doubt the vast majority) who 'sell' properties under false pretences. I also agree with you that Douglas's situation (and all the others out there in a similar situation), is a disgrace and i know that he is really trying to help to prevent other from ending up in such a mess as some of us lot have got into, and maybe some of us need his wrathful/no BS emination to jolt us into reality (even sensitive souls like me)!

Anyway bye for now & all the Best -TDK