InVinoVeritas

I recently watched a documentary about Hitler's rise to power which took the trouble to translate into English whole sections of Mein Kampf and his rabble rousing political speeches.

On the subject of the Jews he was indirect in his criticisms and comparisons but the message was there and was picked up by the media and his followers at the time who all formed similar interpretations and conclusions of what Hitler really meant.

Varoufakis has been doing the exact same thing, forming the beginning of thoughts so that people can all come to the same inevitable conclusions.

Remember that, at the same time, Tsipras was also raising the issue of several billion Euros in reparations for the wartime occupation of Greece by the Nazis and old newsreels of the Nazi occupation were being shown in the Athens subway, on a continuous loop.

No, you are quite wrong on this Eric - the intent was quite clearly to play the Nazi card and to invite comparison between Merkel and Hitler and it weakens your other arguments that you so slavishly support these two Greek thugs in everything they have done. Sorry, but it needs to be said.

Garbatellamike

that captures my thoughts exactly.

Red Eric

The issue of the war reparations was handled very badly, in my opinion.

That said, there was no attempt whatsoever by any member of the Greek government to compare Merkel or any other member of the Germen government to Nazis.

Varoufakis has mentioned Nazism in a quite different context altogether - ie that the commonly held belief that German fascism rose from hyper-inflation is false and that it was, in fact, contraction in government spending (ie austerity) which was the chief cause. And he points out that in similar circumstances the parties of the far right are once again on the rise, in Greece and in Europe as a whole.

I don't know about film played on the Athens subway (is the subway still running?), or stories in Greek newspapers - I don't read Greek and I haven't been to Athens. I suspect most of the stuff of this nature that circulates is untrue or barely noticed in Greece and it certainly can't be attributed to the government. I hope you get as hot under the collar every time England play Germany at football, especially in the World Cup, with what appears in the tackier sectors of the English press.

I don't support these "two Greek thugs" in everything they have done. I do, however, think it's high time the real problems facing Greece were brought into the open and addressed - that is the promise the government made to its people and that is the promise it has kept. It has also kept its promise to keep Greece in the EZ - surely after the events of the past few days nobody could still seriously suggest they wanted to leave the euro all along.

Biggles has it right and I said it earlier in the thread (and got a "blunt" response) - regime change is what the creditors want and have done all along. They started prior to the election, they've deliberately stalled the negotiations for months and now they're desperate to persuade the Greeks to vote for more austerity by Project Fear-ing them on the alternative. And they're doing it by lying.

If they carry on like this there'll be a civil war on their hands. No problem though - you guys will join the chorus blaming the current government conveniently ignoring the circumstances which led to their election.

amideislas

That's leftism for you. 'democracy', for the 'common good' - as long as the government exclusively interprets what that is.

Garbatellamike

Eric, pleas excuse me for being brutally frank.

Throughout this debate you have been the one on the moral high ground for sure (and I have agreed with much you have said); however, this defence of Varoufakis outrageous behavoir is doing you a gross disservice.

This odios tactic, no matter what context you try and shape it in, is, indefensible.

I am so disgusted by his pathetic excuses for his outrageous comparisons that I am almost beginning to think Regiime Change is justified in his case against all my better inclinations to the contrary.

By all means defend his economic views and negotiating tactics but please do not defend his offensive Nazi comparison. You are clearly a highly intelligent, well-read guy and most certainly a skilled debater but this comparison not something for debate it is completely unacceptable to anyone with a shred of moral decency.

iano

Not surprising really, Art 3 of the EU treaty includes the commitment to develop a social market economy; the EU (& German) model. Although Greece has signed up to that, Syriza won't.

I do think that without full political and economic union, or widescale reform, there has to be an element of flexibility and compromise shown by the 'Haves', and demonstrable adherence to EU agreements and principles by the 'Have nots'. Something alien to both cultures, and very difficult to achieve with 28 diverse members of a club.

If not, that tin that's constantly being kicked down the road, will some day turn into a grenade.

InVinoVeritas

Varoufakis has announced that he will resign if Greeks vote yes on Sunday. Two birds with one stone, YES!

Garbatellamike

Yes I saw that too but he is a proven liar and seems to be totally without scruples so don't hold your breath.

Wait for the "I have decided to fight on against the evil looting Troika for the good of the people of Europe speech".....

amideislas

Either way, me thinks not only are their days now very much numbered, but they have miraculously succeeded in unwittingly buying the troika a LOT of credibility whilst destroying their own.

Irony is very typically leftist character. In their insatiable quest for the 'ideal' they always manage to make a mess of reality.

Garbatellamike

Yes agreed.

That is why despite all the labels put on people in politics (neo-con, neo-liberal, well meaning woolly thinking nit wit, facist pig, reformed communist etc) there are actually only 2 fundamental outlooks in the international system - idealists and realists.....

PS: A thought (clearly not mine originally as it is far too clever): if you haven't voted idealist before you are 30, you don't have a heart, and if you haven't voted realist before you are 35, you don't have a brain....

bigglesworth

From AEP in the Telegraph today
"This default is doubly shameful given that the original IMF-Troika loan in 2010 was not intended to save Greece. The extra debt was imposed on an already bankrupt Greek state to buy time for the euro, against Greek interests.

Leaked documents leave no doubt that the real purpose was to save monetary union and the European banking system - and to avert a “Euro-Lehman”, in the IMF’s own words - at a time when the eurozone had no defences against contagion.

Worse, the bitter showdown has made brutally explicit what many long suspected, that sovereign democracies count for nought when push comes to shove in Euroland.

The European Central Bank is not the chief villain, perhaps, in the latest chapter. It is in an impossible position. Yet citizens across Europe can see with their own eyes that the ECB has been rationing emergency liquidity (ELA) for a prostrate country as a tool of political pressure, and that it forced Syriza to take the drastic step of shutting the banks by freezing ELA at €89bn.

It is an odd spectacle to watch a central bank with a treaty duty to uphold financial stability take the deliberate decision to precipitate the collapse of banks that it regulates. But the deeper point is that the insane construction of the euro - a naked currency union without fiscal and political foundations - must inevitably tend to authoritarian monetary dystopia in the end".

EMR

Reuters report that 4 members of the current coalition have resigned in protest at the policies which have resulted in the referendum.

Red Eric

My 50€ to a charity of your choosing if he breaks his word.


No need to reciprocate if he has to prove he is a man of honour.

Garbatellamike

I will of course reciprocate if that particular leopard completely changes his spots and becomes a man of honour all of a sudden.

Might be a moot point though as his side may win the irrelevant and improper referendum on latest polls.

Edit: Or might be even be a moot point point because the illegitimate referendum contravenes the Greek constitution......Court in Session!

Maybe1day

Opinión polls going in all directions with every news broadcast, allways close whichever way........like a baby playing with a magnet and a compass. No-one appears to be sticking their head out yet....except you guys!