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Second Class Citizen

Second Class Citizen

Old Jun 14th 2019, 9:19 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
But you need not be blind to it. Cradle Canadians are rare around here. I suppose 20% of the people in the building (a couple of thousand people total) might be white, born in Canada, Canadians. All of the executives are. Almost of the police and judiciary are. Almost all of the members of the government at all levels are. Immigrants don't suffer the kind of discrimination that the aboriginal people in empty Provinces do; we're not in camps or in jail, but there are certain establishment positions for which membership of the bumiputera is a major qualifier.

Note that I'm not taking a position, if the Canadians think it appropriate to operate an apartheid system that's up to them, it's not our place to judge but to leave if we're not comfortable with it.
I think you had better take a better look at the Federal Government ........... I see a lot of non-white and even immigrant faces in Trudeau's Cabinet, and quite a few more sitting in the chamber, with many more being the children of immigrants ......... except in the Conservative party.

I wonder why that is????

For heavens sake, all Canadians EXCEPT the First Nations are descended from immigrants, just as all British are "mongrels" as any who has studied genealogy can tell you!

I'm sorry, but I think a lot of white UK immigrants have brought it on themselves ............... we met a lot in our early days who thought they were entitled "just because they were born in Britain".

I've seen statements on here from people that they "expected" it to be easy to immigrate into Canada because "they were born British".

Many complain bitterly about the vacation time, because "they" got so much in the UK.

Does that sound familiar??

Don't you think it could grate on Canadians, even naturalized Canadians like myself, to continually hear complaints "because I'm British and I'm entitled"????????

Even your use of the term "cradle Canadians" is offensive to me!

It denigrates those born here, even people like my daughter born of immigrant parents.

I'm proud to be a Canadian, Canada has been very good to us.

I'm thankful to England for my education which I could not have afforded without the generous financial backing that was then available. But I paid my debt back to them, and am grateful to not live there now.

And yes, like so many others I also had a problem finding a job that I liked and enjoyed when we first came, but I found one after 9 months, and the fact that I ONLY got 2 weeks vacation a year, that I could only take after working there for 1 year, meant nothing ........... I am brutally honest with that statement.

It was what happened here, I knew that if I stayed in the job that I would eventually get more, which is what happened as I gradually worked my way up to 6 weeks vacation a year plus I had the opportunity to work overtime and get more vacation time in lieu of overtime pay.

What did I do with in the 9 months when I couldn't find a job that I liked? I volunteered with a non-profit group. It didn't do anything to help me find a job but it occupied my time!
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Old Jun 14th 2019, 9:25 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by CanadaJimmy View Post
While discrimination exists in Canada, Canada is still one of the most tolerant countries in the world when it comes to this issue. However, what I disagree with the most here is your suggestion that the only response to "leave" and that "it's not our place to judge". I hold a Canadian passport and am a Canadian citizen, as such I have the right to call out racism when I see it, even though I was not born here. We are allowed to be politically active. We can all do our part to stomp out intolerance, even as immigrants.

I wish that one could change "we are allowed to be politically active" to "we are EXPECTED to be politically active".

It IS our place to judge racism, and intolerance, and to take action when we see it.

There is no bar to being politically active, or to attend demonstrations, or to complain about racism and intolerance just because you are an immigrant. Many of the people who are currently demonstrating in Vancouver against what is going on in Hong Kong are immigrants ......... from Hong Kong and from other parts of the world.

This is the land of free speech, and democratic action, and of tolerance.

I became a Canadian citizen so that I could actively participate in the political system by voting in all elections.

I carry a Canadian passport and refuse to carry a British passport because I consider that this is MY country now. I left England a long time ago, and have no right to participate in political debates there because I just do not know enough about the background.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 12:51 am
  #18  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by scilly View Post

There is no bar to being politically active, or to attend demonstrations, or to complain about racism and intolerance just because you are an immigrant. Many of the people who are currently demonstrating in Vancouver against what is going on in Hong Kong are immigrants ......... from Hong Kong and from other parts of the world.

.
Well quite, if we want to demonstrate against Brexit it's fitting that we do so. Just not the internal affairs here.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 3:26 am
  #19  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by alwaysbusy View Post
So I’ve been thinking about this for awhile but reluctant to ask but...does anyone else feel like a second class citizen in Canada? I hear all about this famous welcoming, inclusive, meritocratic society here but the longer I stay the more I think that Canada just talks a good game but is just politely dishonest/ full of crap. I see examples all the time at work where if you express an independent opinion or go against the grain in any way then if you are Canadian by birth you’re fine and it won’t negatively impact your opportunities or how you are perceived but if you have an accent then you can expect to be marginalized. It could just be me, it could be my field of work but I would be interested to know if anyone else has had these experiences as well.
Omg, are you my husband? He would say pretty much the same and in large parts I have to agree.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 3:59 am
  #20  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by dbd33 View Post
Well quite, if we want to demonstrate against Brexit it's fitting that we do so. Just not the internal affairs here.

Well, of course you can flippin' well demonstrate against things happening in Canada! What the heck makes you think that you cannot.

You can demonstrate for or against the TransMountain pipeline.

You could have demonstrated for and against Canadian servicemen and women being sent to Afghanistan.

You can demonstrate for or against Canada contracting with Huawei, or for or against Meng Wanzhou being held under the extradition treaty with the US.

As long as you demonstrate PEACEFULLY, and that means no violence or getting arrested for demonstrating if you do not have citizenship, then you can demonstrate.

The same rules apply in the UK so I believe.


I sometimes think you operate in a completely different universe from the one in which I, my friends, relations and contacts live!

I know immigrants who are heads of business, men and women (!!!!!) of colour who are partners in companies.

I worked with Canadians both born and naturalized, as well as PRs and immigrants from other countries.

Our best friends range from Canadian born and naturalized to American, South African and Australian.

In the political world ...........

the Finance Minister of BC is part Metis, and is married to a First Nations man.

The Minister of Advanced Education in BC is a First nations woman.

Trudeau has an Afghan immigrant (woman!!) in his cabinet, several from the continent of India

I could go on and on ..............

yet you constantly talk about your little world which has immigrants because, I gather, they are the ones who have the abilities that you need at any one particular time. AND you talk as if Canada was anything but a tolerant, democratic country that believes in free speech.

Last edited by scilly; Jun 15th 2019 at 4:03 am.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 12:55 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

I agree, I've experienced the same and even had some pretty disgusting comments from friends who couldn't see anything wrong with what they were saying.

A lot of friends and acquaintances were very vocal about how much "Canadian money" was being spent on my treatment when I fell ill, amd since I've recovered, about how that money could have been spent on Canadians, many of them told my husband and I that I shouldn't have been treated, despite knowing that I would have died otherwise.

Its very hurtful, more so when its said at BBQs and the like, casually in front of our young child who can't understand why Mommy's friends didn't think she was worth the cash to save her life. From people I thought were very close friends. Surely even if you thought it you wouldn't have the gall to say it?

I think Canada does talk a good game, and I think the laws and regulations protecting people against discrimination go further than most countries, but that's very different to the actual people holding the mindset to uphold those laws and challenge discrimination.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 2:10 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by scilly View Post

yet you constantly talk about your little world which has immigrants because, I gather, they are the ones who have the abilities that you need at any one particular time.
It's not that, just that almost everyone here is an immigrant and I don't have any reason to seek out actual Canadians. If I see someone driving a truck while wearing a hat I assume them to be Canadian but I don't know that, they could be Americans.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 2:52 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Totally agree. Both my wife and I have had this feeling especially in our work places and our daughter in sport. We are just on the out skirts of Victoria and have heard the same issues from many other people including Canadians from back east. We have got to the point we are done with Canada and heading back to the UK as soon as our son finishes High School to retire. Both of us work in Crown Corporations and have been stunned how Canadians game the system and get away with it while others dont. The same people seem to get a bout of 'stress' every summer which requires them to go sick until the Fall when the miracously recover. I have seen people get promoted who dont have any relevant qualifications and have to be spoon fed to carry their job. The errors they make is commical if not sad to the point they waste huge amoiunts of money and put peoples lives at risk. For someone who has said they never experienced this must live very sheltered lives as just about everything here is based on who you are and where you are from. There is an extreme sense of entitlement of many who grew up here. We have been in BC 13 years and really enjoyed the first seven living in the Lower Mainland. We lived in a great community and had many friends which we still keep in touch with today. It was the move to Vancouver Island which really opened our eyes. Other than work colleagues we have made very few friends. People dont seem to want to socialise and we bearly speak to our neighbours despite living here for 6 years. We asked ourselves what is so different here than the LM where we had such a good time. It seems most of our friends in the LM came from somehwere else in the world and were not local. Moving to VI was our real first immersment in 'white' Canadians and we have been shocked, everyone seems to know everyone else or has family connections here. If you were not born here you dont stand much of a chance. I know many people who have moved away from here for the same reason including Canadians from elsewhere. I find people from other parts of Canada to be more friendly, better qualified and easier to get along with than locals. People can be extremely rude and very unpleasant in the work place. Just watching them drive around Victoria is a giggle. Bullying is a major issue in the work place and I am stunned with what some people can get away with. Its always been amazing to me that many who get promoted come from the smaller communities of BC and the people which hire them seem to come from the same place. I have never ever witnessed as much corruption as I have seen here. The hypocracy and political correctness drives us nuts. They claim to be green and are totally destroying the place! There is no forward planning and when one of my colleagues went to visit the local mayor to find out what his 5 year plan for the municpality was he said he didnt have one and lets his developer pals do what they like - strange they same people are just being taken to court for ignoring building regulations. Having said all of that there is the exceptions and there are some good people around but for us we are done with BC and cant wait to leave. All in all we are very dissapointed with VI, it is like living in the 19th century. We have thought about moving to other parts of Canada to retire but we think we will be better off moving back to the UK.

Last edited by getoutofbritainquick; Jun 15th 2019 at 3:02 pm.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 5:12 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by raindropsandroses View Post
I agree, I've experienced the same and even had some pretty disgusting comments from friends who couldn't see anything wrong with what they were saying.

A lot of friends and acquaintances were very vocal about how much "Canadian money" was being spent on my treatment when I fell ill, amd since I've recovered, about how that money could have been spent on Canadians, many of them told my husband and I that I shouldn't have been treated, despite knowing that I would have died otherwise.

Its very hurtful, more so when its said at BBQs and the like, casually in front of our young child who can't understand why Mommy's friends didn't think she was worth the cash to save her life. From people I thought were very close friends. Surely even if you thought it you wouldn't have the gall to say it?
Wow that is f-d up. Dump those “friends”, don’t be tolerant of such intolerance. If I ever overheard someone saying anything like that about any immigrant I’d give them a piece of my mind.

Just told my Canadian wife the story and she was even more outraged about it than I was!

Last edited by CanadaJimmy; Jun 15th 2019 at 5:18 pm.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 5:49 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by getoutofbritainquick View Post
Totally agree. Both my wife and I have had this feeling especially in our work places and our daughter in sport. We are just on the out skirts of Victoria and have heard the same issues from many other people including Canadians from back east. We have got to the point we are done with Canada and heading back to the UK as soon as our son finishes High School to retire. Both of us work in Crown Corporations and have been stunned how Canadians game the system and get away with it while others dont. The same people seem to get a bout of 'stress' every summer which requires them to go sick until the Fall when the miracously recover. I have seen people get promoted who dont have any relevant qualifications and have to be spoon fed to carry their job. The errors they make is commical if not sad to the point they waste huge amoiunts of money and put peoples lives at risk. For someone who has said they never experienced this must live very sheltered lives as just about everything here is based on who you are and where you are from. There is an extreme sense of entitlement of many who grew up here. We have been in BC 13 years and really enjoyed the first seven living in the Lower Mainland. We lived in a great community and had many friends which we still keep in touch with today. It was the move to Vancouver Island which really opened our eyes. Other than work colleagues we have made very few friends. People dont seem to want to socialise and we bearly speak to our neighbours despite living here for 6 years. We asked ourselves what is so different here than the LM where we had such a good time. It seems most of our friends in the LM came from somehwere else in the world and were not local. Moving to VI was our real first immersment in 'white' Canadians and we have been shocked, everyone seems to know everyone else or has family connections here. If you were not born here you dont stand much of a chance. I know many people who have moved away from here for the same reason including Canadians from elsewhere. I find people from other parts of Canada to be more friendly, better qualified and easier to get along with than locals. People can be extremely rude and very unpleasant in the work place. Just watching them drive around Victoria is a giggle. Bullying is a major issue in the work place and I am stunned with what some people can get away with. Its always been amazing to me that many who get promoted come from the smaller communities of BC and the people which hire them seem to come from the same place. I have never ever witnessed as much corruption as I have seen here. The hypocracy and political correctness drives us nuts. They claim to be green and are totally destroying the place! There is no forward planning and when one of my colleagues went to visit the local mayor to find out what his 5 year plan for the municpality was he said he didnt have one and lets his developer pals do what they like - strange they same people are just being taken to court for ignoring building regulations. Having said all of that there is the exceptions and there are some good people around but for us we are done with BC and cant wait to leave. All in all we are very dissapointed with VI, it is like living in the 19th century. We have thought about moving to other parts of Canada to retire but we think we will be better off moving back to the UK.
Wow! I can’t begin to imagine what circles you move in. I live in the exact same place and haven’t experienced a single one of the prejudices you cite. As already suggested, change your circle of friends. It sounds like the UK is your solution.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 6:04 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

At least Canada talks the talk, both nationally and for the most part provincially (equal rights, multi culty, women are super, ethnicities etc) ...the reality of the walking the walk differs dramatically I suspect dependent on where you live. But at least it is saying the right things as a country...which is a damn sight better than Russia or Brunei or many African or Arab nations.

I would not not like to be visually or sexually different in lots of bits of rural New Brunswick, but I’m not sure I’d be happy in rural Wales or the Midlands either. There just are not enough people here to put the broad into broad minded.

I read an article recently that stated ‘if you haven’t experienced racism in Canada it’s because you are visibly white’. I can believe that, but the article was evidently shocking to a number of readers...which gives one hope.

I have to agree with Rivington, I interview 8, mainly Canadian people, a day now, and they never mention my accent anymore, and they did at first, and I think it’s because my speech pattern has changed. I actively use vocabulary that they are more familiar with and in a different word order. It makes life much easier, and I’m less cross.

The world seems sadly more intolerant, the whole bloody planet seems to have a snit with some other faction, if they aren’t trying to tell women what to do with their reproductive systems then they’re having a go at someone sexually.

I can can only hope sincerely that this is cyclical and it might improve with time???
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 6:17 pm
  #27  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by MillieF View Post
At least Canada talks the talk, both nationally and for the most part provincially (equal rights, multi culty, women are super, ethnicities etc) ...the reality of the walking the walk differs dramatically I suspect dependent on where you live. But at least it is saying the right things as a country...which is a damn sight better than Russia or Brunei or many African or Arab nations.

I would not not like to be visually or sexually different in lots of bits of rural New Brunswick, but I’m not sure I’d be happy in rural Wales or the Midlands either. There just are not enough people here to put the broad into broad minded.

I read an article recently that stated ‘if you haven’t experienced racism in Canada it’s because you are visibly white’. I can believe that, but the article was evidently shocking to a number of readers...which gives one hope.

I have to agree with Rivington, I interview 8, mainly Canadian people, a day now, and they never mention my accent anymore, and they did at first, and I think it’s because my speech pattern has changed. I actively use vocabulary that they are more familiar with and in a different word order. It makes life much easier, and I’m less cross.

The world seems sadly more intolerant, the whole bloody planet seems to have a snit with some other faction, if they aren’t trying to tell women what to do with their reproductive systems then they’re having a go at someone sexually.

I can can only hope sincerely that this is cyclical and it might improve with time???
as always, I agree with everything you say
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 7:31 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

Originally Posted by MillieF View Post
There just are not enough people here to put the broad into broad minded.


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Old Jun 15th 2019, 7:52 pm
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

I think this will greatly depend on where you live. I found bigger cities to be more open-minded about immigrants. Canada has a lot to offer but it's not perfect. Nowhere is. I have had good and bad experiences. I do see more hypocrisy among people here (similar to the US) than in Europe but again it could just be my little world.
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Old Jun 15th 2019, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: Second Class Citizen

We dont move in any circles with people here and you live in Mill Bay (one of my crew lives there and he has had a terrible time with his neighbours and he's Canadian) which is a large difference to where we live on Bear Mountain. Everything around here is tied to the Mayor and his buddies - I never knew what a thiefdom was until I moved here. If you are not in that circle you dont stand a chance. I have heard and witnessed many horror stories with what goes on here. Check out the local election stats for Langford - 26000 eligible voters and the Mayor gets in unapposed with 3500 (probably most of his employees) and the councillors around 2000 votes. There is never anyone else to vote for. These people are well known in this area for what they are. Nothing more than white trash or below. They have mutilated this place for the benefit of themselves and their friends. They pride themselves with not following rules like any civilised society would its like living in the 19th century.
Victoria is not much better although we do like the Saanich are towards Sydney. We have tried to sell and move there a couple of times as we cannot stand Langford. Yes, the delightful place where the Premier lives! My Canadian neighbour refers to the place as mutant city. I met with a RCMP officer in Langford the other day following a break in to my sub. He had only just moved here from Kelowna and the first thing he said was he regretted moving here becuase of the Municipality.
We tend to spend a lot of time with our friends in the LM or stay in hotels in Victoria every now and again.
I manage all the electrical substations in the area and my stations never used to have any break-ins until the past year. Now it happens almost every week and its getting worse. Drugs and discarded needles everywhere. We have a very large income and not finacially challenged but the cost of living here is a joke. We were planning to retire in Victoria. Now we dislike the place and dont think it justifies the expense - we know quite a few Brits who moved here only to leave a year or so later because they disliked the place. It is like living in a permanent construction zone and looks a mess. For those who are not familiar with VI it is all virtually all socialist NDP with only 1 or 2 Liberal MP's scattered over the Island. There are small pockets of nice areas but mostly its very low end and run down. What has changed our thinking since we have been in Canada is that we prefer being in the States and often spend time over there on road trips and vacations. We find the Americans to be far friendlier and more intelligent than those we meet here.
Like others on this post have said we have found people here not what they claim to be and find them extemely rude both socially and in the work place - I could write a book on what we have experienced. We are very social people but find this place culturally devoid. Everyone to their own but we cant wait to get back to the UK. Hopefully to retire in Devon or Cornwall.
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