bazz, i like your posts mate, they are generally very witty. but on here you are well out of order, i am not getting into it or we will seriously fall out.

Well out of order Bazz.

Bazzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Do you have to work hard at being such an utter tosspot?...or does it come naturally? Cause on this thread mate, that is exactly how you come across and its far from flattering. Suggest you choose topics (or aspects of same) to ridicule with a little more care in future.

All meant in the best possible taste!

Oh, the latter. What about you?

It is very easy to sit in a safe part of the world where the bad guys don't come knocking- you can feel safe and sanitised whilst having your freedom of speech. Just don't forget for you to be able to do that there are others who are working at you being able to keep that privilege - just remember that while you sit at your computer composing supposedly witty/sarcastic retorts that there is some poor guy safeguarding your right to do it.

When you switch off your computer and get into your safe warm bed at night spare a thought for some poor Sgt about to take his men out on patrol in a war zone not knowing if he is going to get himself let alone his men home alive. He's not doing it for some gung ho reason but because he too believes in his right to have what you have - a safe and free home and the right to say what he likes. A knock on the door for you may mean buddies calling to go for a beer or to the hockey - for some it may be a chaplain standing there bearing the worst news possible.



I've been dreading that news coming for the past 33 years - I look forward to the day when a knock on the door means my OH is going for a beer with his buddies or to watch the hockey instead of being petrified to open the door incase my world is about to fall apart around my feet.

So while you sit and think up some sarcastic retort to my reply spare a thought for the men and women who work hard to give you that right.

Ignorance is bliss so they say!

Bazzz

You just can't help yourself can you. Read the citations below and then reflect on the "anything particularly heroic" comment. Note the second one in particular as the man was involved in peace keeping not war fighting. When you have finished reading them print them off and pass them to your father. With the message "Some Colours Never Run"

Private Johnson Gideon Beharry - Victoria Cross

Pte Beharry receives the Victoria Cross for two separate acts of outstanding gallantry of the highest order whilst based in Al Amarah, Maysan Province, Iraq, in 2004.

In the first incident on 1 May 2004, Pte Beharry was driving the Platoon Commander's Warrior armoured vehicle that had been called to the assistance of a foot patrol caught in a series of ambushes. The Warrior vehicle was hit by multiple rocket propelled grenades, causing damage and resulting in the loss of radio communications. The platoon commander, the vehicle's gunner and a number of other soldiers in the vehicle were injured.

Pte Beharry showed initiative and great courage driving through the ambush, taking his own crew and leading five other Warriors to safety. He then demonstrated outstanding bravery by extracting his wounded colleagues from the vehicle, all the time exposed to further enemy fire. He is cited on this occasion for "valour of the highest order".

Whilst back on duty on 11 June 2004, Pte Beharry was again driving the lead Warrior vehicle of his platoon through Al Amarah when this vehicle was ambushed. A rocket propelled grenade hit the vehicle and Pte Beharry received serious head injuries.

Other rockets hit the vehicle incapacitating his commander and injuring several of the crew. Despite his very serious injuries, from which he is still recovering, Pte Beharry showed great strength of character, taking control of his vehicle and driving it out of the ambush area before losing consciousness. His citation reads:
"For his repeated extreme gallantry and unquestioned valour, despite intense direct attacks, personal injury and damage to his vehicle in the face of relentless enemy action, Private Beharry deserves the highest possible recognition."

Col Paul Anthony Jobbins - George Medal

Receiving one of the next highest awards in this list, The George Medal, is Colonel Paul Anthony Jobbins, a Royal Marine Reserve, who is honoured for his actions in the Democratic Republic of Congo in 2004.

Col Jobbins was responsible for tactical control of all UN forces in Bukavu, the major city in the eastern Congo, when serious fighting broke out and the city fell to insurgents in June 2004. Women were raped, innocent children murdered and homes pillaged.

Throughout this dangerous period, unarmed and at great personal risk, Col Jobbins worked ceaselessly to conduct negotiations with faction commanders, arrange the withdrawal of all forces and rescue UN personnel and Congolese civilians.

Col Jobbins drove through crossfire to meet with a dissident General, persuaded him to halt his advance, and personally rescued many terrified civilians, often under fire. He personally ensured the safety of thousands of civilians and is cited for his commitment and courage, and his gallant leadership under fire. The citation reads:
"Unarmed, Col Jobbins' repeatedly gallant actions throughout the crisis were in the finest traditions of the British Armed Forces and clearly went well beyond the normal limits of UN peacekeeping."

Sgt Terry Bryan - Conspicuous Gallantry Cross

A Conspicuous Gallantry Cross is awarded to Sergeant Terry Bryan, Royal Regiment of Artillery, for his bravery in Basra, Iraq, in August 2004. Sgt Bryan was leading a patrol that became engaged in a gunfight with Muqtada Al Sadr’s militia after their vehicles were ambushed.

Forced to abandon their vehicles and still under heavy fire, Sgt Bryan took control of the situation and engaged in fire that enabled his patrol to escape to a nearby house. Joining them in their position, Sgt Bryan checked for casualties, redistributed ammunition and encouraged and reassured his soldiers.

As they came under small arms, rocket propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire from over forty militia surrounding the house, Sgt Bryan suffered injuries to his legs and eye.

Despite this, Sgt Bryan continued to take time to be with each of his men at their individual positions, lending a hand in the fierce fire fight and encouraging and supporting the young. His citation states that:
"The quite exceptional leadership, professionalism and individual bravery of Sgt Bryan stood out that day. He is a quiet man, a communications specialist by trade but, in a particularly dangerous and dynamic situation, he demonstrated outstanding skill and personal qualities. He held his men together as they fought for their lives. He is also a modest man but 8 others owe him their lives. His gallantry and leadership speak for themselves."

The problem with this sort of emotional appeal is that it depends on our believing that the actions of the troops do, in fact, relate to our safety. In the case of the wars in my lifetime, notably Vietnam and Iraq, this hasn't been the case; these wars were fought for the sake of fighting wars. One can argue that we all derive economic benefit from wars, weapons are usually manufactured at home, the troops are paid and that stimulates the economy but a Keysian argument for a war isn't emotionally inspiring. Off the top of my head only the quelling of the insurgents in Northern Ireland stands as an example of the armed forces being used in a manner somehow related to providing the British people, some British people, with a "safe and free home".

You miss the point. These men may be brave. It may be tragic that they die but it's not for us that they do it.

Being an Economics and Business Managment graduate myself I think the word you were looking for was Keynesian - I am well aware of the economic benefits of war! As for emotional and heartfelt - well yes there is a certain degree of that in my reply - but I'm also a factual person and I deal with facts as I see them, I have the intellect to view both sides of an arguement.

<lets her typo pass>

Perhaps I should take my own advice! Never argue with an idiot! Casual observers my find it difficult to figure out who the idiot is!

As for my typo – ‘Bite Me!’
Here ends my bitch for the day folks!

You bit me first! Nyah nyah, etc.

Are you trying to imply that the population of the Falkland Islands were not worth the military intervention. Are they somehow lesser British Subjects because the don't live in mainland UK

"Unarmed, Col Jobbins' repeatedly gallant actions throughout the crisis were in the finest traditions of the British Armed Forces and clearly went well beyond the normal limits of UN peacekeeping."

So peacekeeping is out in your world as well. This man did it whilst working for the UNITED NATIONS pursuit of world stability not the policy of the UK government. He is a human being first and a soldier second. Through his actions and compassion he saved the lives of fellow humans.

Commendable I'm sure. I don't dispute that the armed forces include brave people sometimes pursuing worthwhile activities but the appeal is for gratitude, something that implies that troops act on our behalf, I don't see that they do. At their best, they pursue humanitarian objectives on behalf of the UN; that makes them as deserving of gratitude as, say, an NGO.

Yes, The Falkland Islanders are lesser subjects because they don't live in the UK, something like the Hong Kong Chinese.

Careful,
Didn't the Nazi view point categorise people into lesser classes. I thought that all people were equal or at least that’s what I was brought up to believe.