Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Heads, bashing and brick walls come to mind re. this thread. You won't convince a believer to reexamine their basic assumptions by using logic or classical proof theory: if you *know* you're right then there's no way the fats can stand in your way.

Having said that, the more bizarre theories coming out of cosmologists and quantum physicists take quite a lot of swallowing, as they go against common sense and classical - including Einstinian - physics in a big way!

For example, it has apparently been demonstrated that the observation of a photon *after* it has made its mark as an interference pattern in the classic two-slit experiment actually alters which slit it has gone through.Entanglement appears to run backwards in time by a nanosecond or two - violating what we see as causality.

I can't remember who it was who said that the universe is not only stranger than we imagine but it's stranger than we *can* imagine.

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Plus there's that whole theory that you can't observe anything without influencing it in some way, so you will never know exactly what would happen if you weren't watching.....

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

This is what I love about science and the world. You really have to think about it. It must be very dull never to be challenged by new ideas.

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Sorry to butt in on what has been a highly fascinating thread for me. The only time I posted on here I got my head torn off for daring to say I didn't believe in the "miracle" of evolution. I wasn't prepared to get into an argument about it, from someone who was hostile to me from the beginning.

Anyway it seems to me that this thread has believers in God and the Bible on one side, and non believers of God and the Bible on the other side.

I was curious as to whether the non believers totally discount the idea of there being an afterlife just because they don't believe in God.

I personally don't believe in God, well not the type perceived from the Bible anyway. I believe the Bible may have factual parts in it, but has been added to and taken away from and corrupted to suit each religions needs over thousands of years.

Religion is the control of people. Religion brainwashes people, and most of these people live in fear of what their God will do to them if they stray from the path.

My friend is a spiritualist and a born again christian once told her that "she wouldn't stop to help her if she dropped dead in the street" if that is what religion does to people, you can keep it. How can anyone religious or not condone that kind of behaviour.

I do however believe in an afterlife. I have no proof, then those who don't believe don't have proof it doesn't exist either.

It seems to me that the non believers continue to question things. They are always open to new theories and ideas. Believers have tunnel vision and are blindfolded to new ideas. The bible is FACT to them, and only they can choose to open their eyes and seek the real truth.

Sorry for rambling on guys.. Have mercy on me :)

Take care all and have a fantastic day

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

What do you think the real truth is?

Why do you think there is an afterlife?

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

WoW. Two huge questions. Not quite sure if there are enough hours in the day to write down everything I believe.

I'll try and condense it as much as I can. Then if/when people start picking holes in it, I can hopefully answer questions better, and maybe someone can make me question my views. I am very open minded,and just like most people in this world I just want answers.Not lies and fabrications. We want the truth. Omg sounds a bit like the X Files now :)

First I'd like to recommend 2 great books both by Tony Bushby. One is called The Secret in the Bible, and the other is The Bible Fraud.

I've always believed that we are not alone in this Universe. I'm by no means anywhere close to being a mathematician and some of the replies on this thread have left me scratching my head. Sorry but physics and maths and quantam physics and all that stuff goes straight over my head. I have to have my husband interpret it for me. Surely though the statisics are in favour of a planet out there somewhere which is able to sustain life. I'm not talking little green men from Mars, but maybe a civilisation millions of years superior to ours. Same old story though. you can't prove it exists, you can't prove it doesn't.

What we do know though is the lack of evidence of the missing link. Show me that and I'll change my views. I don't believe we have evolved from apes.

Skeletal evidence proves the existence of prehistoric man.Science though fails to find the evidence of that jump from prehistoric man to the homosapian.

That I guess takes me to how we became who we are today.

There must at some point been some form of intervention from a Higher Intelligence. These beings gave us morality and a conscience, these things I believe are unique to man. How this happened and in what form this happened over how many years I have no idea. These beings were treated as Gods by a race of people who knew no different. It may interest you to know that ancient scripts taken from Egypt spoke of Elohim who created mankind. Elohim is plural and was taken out of early Bible translations and replaced with the word God so that Christians and Jews couldn't be accused of worshipping more than one God. I also do believe these beings gave us a spirit which can survive death.

I am afraid of the way I will die, but not about dying itself. If the spirit doesn't survive death I will neither know about it or really care tbh.

I have no proof of the afterlife. I do though have friends who are mediums, and speak to spirit. Please don't confuse this with the huge TV personalities like Derek Acorah and Colin Fry, who I think give mediumship a bad name name. They are ordinary down to earth people who have a gift of being able to connect with the spirits of dead people.

My friends have no need to lie to me and if they give me messages from my Mum who passed away 4 years ago, I find it difficult to not believe.

I'm sure this doesn't answer all your questions and I'm sure I may come across as some fruitcake, but honestly I'm not :)

Laters guys x x

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

I believe there have been new finds re: the missing link, but are you saying you think animals evolved and then Man was created? Why would that be? I don't follow why morality and conscience had to be implanted by a higher power - most morality is common sense as a society evolves - it's not a good idea to have people randomly killing eachother for example.

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Well I would be interested to know where I can find some sort of reference to the new finds yo mentioned, as I said I am not steadfast in my beliefs I am open to other suggestions, providing this can be backed up with proof.

I was actually talking to someone the other day who believes we have evolved through reincarnation, which I thought was very interesting, and I have since given a lot of thought to this. I can't disprove this line of thought, but to believe this you still have to believe in an afterlife I guess.

A question I have though is if man evolved from apes, why is the ape still not evolving, and why is man not still evolving.

LIke I said earlier I don't pretend to know all the answers. There are huge gaps in my ideas which I am constantly trying to fill. I just thought it may be possible to suggest that it isn't all black and white. You can be a non believer in God and the Bible but still believe than someone or something of a Higher Intelligence made us into the beings we are today.

Thanks x x x

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Diva, I do think you are rather muddled in your thinking.

You are right in believing there's a good statistical probability of there being extraterrestrial life "out there". At present it is not proveable, but the mediocrity principle and sheer numbers of star systems make it highly likely though not certain.

However, that is a statistical argument. When it comes to belief in such things as an afterlife, then as is often said extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence - and I see no evidence at all.

There have been thousands of investigations into the "paranormal" (in its broadest sense) and virtually all those that appeared to come up with any even marginal positive results have been shown to be flawed, usually by being subject to cheating by the subjects. The main "culprits" have actually been scientists - because they are trained to investigate nature, which doesn't cheat they can be given the runaround by fake mediums, thought readers etc very easily. Professional magicians see through the frauds straight away.

Statistically, the evidence in these matters is very negative.

A couple of years ago Mrs Wol and I had a very strange experience when looking at a house and completely independently a different agent told us of similar happenings there. We are both sceptics but can't explain the matter - however that is a very long way from "proof" that something supernatural was in the air.

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

I have considered the theory of reincarnation but there is a problem - there are so many millions of extra people, and animals probably, in the world, that how could each one have the soul/spirit/life of a previous being?
I can think of two options - one, is that many humans alive today have either a) no spirit or b) the spirit of some lesser organism, like an amoeba. I could think of a few people that this might apply to!
OR, more scarily, maybe humanity is being diluted, and each individual now has less 'life' than in the past...... But that would support the 'the world is going down the pan' theory, which I think is a load of tosh.

I do find it all vaguely interesting though! It's just difficult to get excited about something for which there is absolutely zero proof/evidence.

(Re the mediums, I can't help but go back to the recent neighbours storyline. Perhaps one day someone will convince me, but for the moment I remain highly sceptical. But then I am a very sceptical & suspicious person.)

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Not being funny - but if you've dropped dead, there's not a lot anyone can do for you. (Excluding the possibility that you're the son of god and will leap up anyway saying, "It's just a scratch"). :D

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Well, I'm sort of with Diva here, I do believe in evolution but I also think that man's DNA has been messed with in the past to cause a massive leap forward. Don't take this as I belive god did it, maybe a natural event caused it, maybe it was aliens. Either way there is no evidence of god and as it is never challenged in a scientific way by the believers then this is never going to happen. Science on the other hand continually challenges itself and so we as a species continue to move forwards.

To Diva's man and apes has stopped evolving argument, well how do you know? It takes millions of years for small incremental changes to take place, and we have only really been concious as a species for a few thousand years so while we have been 'studying' the apes and us would seem to stand still by evolutionary timescales. Here's a thought, did you know it's been 10,000 years since man last domesticated an animal? Not sure why I mention that, but I think it shows how as time moves on and our technology flys ahead our ideas about the passage of time seems to shrink. We now expect to see changes in decades and find it hard to percieve changes that might take a millenia. (Hell confused myself now..off to feed the pacas)

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Well I think man has because of medical science and society, it is no longer the strongest who survive and had kids, everyone does it now so therefore no evolving .

Plus most illness kills us after the age of fertility so won't effect evolution.

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Have you read Dawkins Climbing Mount Improbable? I recommend that you do, as he takes us through a statistically analysed journey of how it is very feasible that man was able to evolve in a (geologically) short period of time.

I would love to chat more on this today, but I have to do some work. I may duck back in this afternoon though!

S

Re: The first mistake in the bible!
 

Evolution occurs through mutation to adaptation for a purpose. In the past mutations were always held up as heresy by the church (yet more killing) - if you were born with 6 toes, or something.

That is one of the major differences between man and animal society - we don't operate on a survival of the fittest system anymore - Slow, weak and old humans arn't eaten by mountain lions any more because they can't run away from them. And we do now make a huge effort to be an inclusive society and care for those born with mutations that may have in the past meant certain death.

But if you think about it logically, by doing this we are in effect preserving and perpetuating bad or poor mutations through society, so the evolutionary process actually has a greater chance of taking place. Though, this may not be in a way that develops a helpful adaptation for survival.

S