View Poll Results: Brexit the aftermath, did the people of the UK vote correctly ?
Yes
43
40.95%
No
53
50.48%
Not more bloody navel gazing for gawd sakes !!!
9
8.57%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll
Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Oct 24th 2016, 12:20 pm
#466
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
I think it's quite straight forward really.
May triggers article 50 and then after 2 years of fraught and tortuous negotiations the UK leaves the EU.
Once that has happened things in the UK have changed enough that it is entirely reasonable to rerun the Scottish referendum.
I suspect the SNP then lose again but if they do pull off a surprise win then there are a further 2-10 years of tortuous negotiations before Scotland separates from the UK.
Scotland can then start accession talks with the EU, which will be even more difficult given the Spanish dimension.
May triggers article 50 and then after 2 years of fraught and tortuous negotiations the UK leaves the EU.
Once that has happened things in the UK have changed enough that it is entirely reasonable to rerun the Scottish referendum.
I suspect the SNP then lose again but if they do pull off a surprise win then there are a further 2-10 years of tortuous negotiations before Scotland separates from the UK.
Scotland can then start accession talks with the EU, which will be even more difficult given the Spanish dimension.
Instead, my guess is that if May got away with pressing the button, against the expressed will of the other parts of the UK, then all of the other bits of the UK call pretty much immediate referenda on leaving the UK and calling themselves a federated state (call it Celticland). Assuming they get the yes vote then before the 2 years of the article 50 are up, they have voted to leave. They then agree with the EU to be the successor state.
Upshot is, THEY, are then the UK, and don't leave, and England is effectively kicked out.
You can see how Celticland wins out of it. You can also see how the EU wins (shafting England, minimising loss of face).
And my guess is that Wales would fall into line with Celticland, rather than stay with England. Hell, I'm not sure that the City of London wouldn't agree to leave too.
Oct 24th 2016, 2:06 pm
#467
Banned
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 22,348
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Don't think that's how it would run actually.
Instead, my guess is that if May got away with pressing the button, against the expressed will of the other parts of the UK, then all of the other bits of the UK call pretty much immediate referenda on leaving the UK and calling themselves a federated state (call it Celticland). Assuming they get the yes vote then before the 2 years of the article 50 are up, they have voted to leave. They then agree with the EU to be the successor state.
Upshot is, THEY, are then the UK, and don't leave, and England is effectively kicked out.
You can see how Celticland wins out of it. You can also see how the EU wins (shafting England, minimising loss of face).
And my guess is that Wales would fall into line with Celticland, rather than stay with England. Hell, I'm not sure that the City of London wouldn't agree to leave too.
Instead, my guess is that if May got away with pressing the button, against the expressed will of the other parts of the UK, then all of the other bits of the UK call pretty much immediate referenda on leaving the UK and calling themselves a federated state (call it Celticland). Assuming they get the yes vote then before the 2 years of the article 50 are up, they have voted to leave. They then agree with the EU to be the successor state.
Upshot is, THEY, are then the UK, and don't leave, and England is effectively kicked out.
You can see how Celticland wins out of it. You can also see how the EU wins (shafting England, minimising loss of face).
And my guess is that Wales would fall into line with Celticland, rather than stay with England. Hell, I'm not sure that the City of London wouldn't agree to leave too.
Oct 24th 2016, 3:57 pm
#468
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
Don't think that's how it would run actually.
Instead, my guess is that if May got away with pressing the button, against the expressed will of the other parts of the UK, then all of the other bits of the UK call pretty much immediate referenda on leaving the UK and calling themselves a federated state (call it Celticland). Assuming they get the yes vote then before the 2 years of the article 50 are up, they have voted to leave. They then agree with the EU to be the successor state.
Upshot is, THEY, are then the UK, and don't leave, and England is effectively kicked out.
You can see how Celticland wins out of it. You can also see how the EU wins (shafting England, minimising loss of face).
And my guess is that Wales would fall into line with Celticland, rather than stay with England. Hell, I'm not sure that the City of London wouldn't agree to leave too.
Instead, my guess is that if May got away with pressing the button, against the expressed will of the other parts of the UK, then all of the other bits of the UK call pretty much immediate referenda on leaving the UK and calling themselves a federated state (call it Celticland). Assuming they get the yes vote then before the 2 years of the article 50 are up, they have voted to leave. They then agree with the EU to be the successor state.
Upshot is, THEY, are then the UK, and don't leave, and England is effectively kicked out.
You can see how Celticland wins out of it. You can also see how the EU wins (shafting England, minimising loss of face).
And my guess is that Wales would fall into line with Celticland, rather than stay with England. Hell, I'm not sure that the City of London wouldn't agree to leave too.
Unfortunately there is no further referendum and the result stands. Wales 47 - 53
Onward and upward.
Oct 24th 2016, 3:57 pm
#469
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 14,284
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
So was it clear to you on your ballot paper that it was a complete withdrawal from the EU or a partial withdrawal from the EU? Very few people understood how complicated it was going to be to leave the EU and that there could be a hard or soft exit. The ballot paper certainly didn't say do you want to leave the EU but retain membership of the single market? Norway is an example of a country which isn't a member but is part of the single market.
We're now finding that politicians and public servants are being left to thrash out the details. The notion that parliament doesn't have a say in the terms (as David Davis wants) is ludicrous, particularly in view of what we were voting on not being crystal clear. Sure, one can interpret what being out meant - but I can interpret something different.
We're now finding that politicians and public servants are being left to thrash out the details. The notion that parliament doesn't have a say in the terms (as David Davis wants) is ludicrous, particularly in view of what we were voting on not being crystal clear. Sure, one can interpret what being out meant - but I can interpret something different.
Oct 24th 2016, 4:27 pm
#470
Last resort... format c:/
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Posts: 1,667
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
At the end of the day the gov't needs to do what is best for the UK. If brexit will have a negative impact then their job is not to let it happen. Plain and simple...
Oct 24th 2016, 4:35 pm
#471
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
It was a referendum, not an election. There is no automatic action and it is non-binding, something that the quitters seem to have conveniently forgotten.
At the end of the day the gov't needs to do what is best for the UK. If brexit will have a negative impact then their job is not to let it happen. Plain and simple...
At the end of the day the gov't needs to do what is best for the UK. If brexit will have a negative impact then their job is not to let it happen. Plain and simple...
The UK is not a bloody dictatorship under any circumstance.
Last edited by ozzieeagle; Oct 24th 2016 at 4:37 pm.
Oct 24th 2016, 4:43 pm
#472
Last resort... format c:/
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Singapore to Surfers Paradise to... Tenerife... to Gran Canaria!
Posts: 1,667
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
The will of the people is to have no IHT, world-class healthcare for free, top-notch infrastructure, etc. I'm sure 99% would say scrap the tv licence too. And who would say no to scrapping fuel tax? 
Do you see any of these being carried out? Or is the gov't acting against the will of the people and we have been a dictatorship for as long as we can remember?
Do you see any of these being carried out? Or is the gov't acting against the will of the people and we have been a dictatorship for as long as we can remember?
Oct 24th 2016, 4:47 pm
#473
Proudly Deplorable
Joined: May 2003
Location: Alloha snack bar
Posts: 24,246
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
It was a referendum, not an election. There is no automatic action and it is non-binding, something that the quitters seem to have conveniently forgotten.
At the end of the day the gov't needs to do what is best for the UK. If brexit will have a negative impact then their job is not to let it happen. Plain and simple...
At the end of the day the gov't needs to do what is best for the UK. If brexit will have a negative impact then their job is not to let it happen. Plain and simple...
Why have a referendum if they are not going to honour the decision? It shouldn't have been a 50-50 vote for such an important decision - 60-40 would have been better
Bad move but Brexit is happening, accept it and move on
Oct 24th 2016, 4:55 pm
#474
Last resort... format c:/
Joined: Mar 2012
Location: Singapore to Surfers Paradise to... Tenerife... to Gran Canaria!
Posts: 1,667
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
All the quitters have been calling the EU undemocratic, even though everyone gets an equal say on matters and Malta's vote counts the same as Germany's vote.
Here we have a 2-2 result in the UK, so are we going to be the undemocratic ones and say that England is more important than Scotland or tiny N.E. because we're bigger?
As for the will of the people, almost everyone agrees that a second referendum would see a different result. Meaning that the CURRENT will of the people would see a majority of remain votes. So should we act against what people want TODAY?
Oct 24th 2016, 5:07 pm
#475
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
The will of the people is to have no IHT, world-class healthcare for free, top-notch infrastructure, etc. I'm sure 99% would say scrap the tv licence too. And who would say no to scrapping fuel tax?
Do you see any of these being carried out? Or is the gov't acting against the will of the people and we have been a dictatorship for as long as we can remember?
Do you see any of these being carried out? Or is the gov't acting against the will of the people and we have been a dictatorship for as long as we can remember?
This is about the freedom to express the will in a massively different direction..... You cannot go against that under any circumstance.
Your talking about the crux of democracy in the UK with this particular subject. That has to be upheld at all costs.... no matter what the financial or external political implications for the UK.
Me thinks you've lived under Lee Kuan Yew's patriarchy in Singapore for too long.
Last edited by ozzieeagle; Oct 24th 2016 at 5:24 pm.
Oct 24th 2016, 5:21 pm
#476
snɐןɔ ʎʇıuɐs
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,558
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
And don't forget, not only was the referendum non-binding, there was also no statement on when.
Oct 24th 2016, 5:30 pm
#477
Last resort... format c:/
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Location: Singapore to Surfers Paradise to... Tenerife... to Gran Canaria!
Posts: 1,667
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
A lot of people were duped into thinking we'd be better off by leaving. Now that the bubble has burst and reality has set in, people need to be told what will happen and how it could affect them.
You mentioned civil unrest - just imagine what will happen if instead of a rainbow and perfect skies we go into a massive recession that sees job losses, lower earnings, a collapse in investment, London ceasing to be Europe's financial hub, the Pound dropping in value like never before in its history, etc. And then the gov't saying, "we knew this would happen but did it anyway." Civil unrest did you say?
What would probably be best - and should happen once you think about it - is to look at the viable options and do a referendum since one of the choices would probably focus on EEA membership. Offer this as option a) with the understanding that it allows the UK to remain part of the Single Market in return, but at the same time the UK must respect the Four Freedoms. And option b) would probably focus on a "hard brexit" that should clearly spell out the dangers associated with it.
Oct 24th 2016, 5:36 pm
#478
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
I would disagree because the gov't needs to do what is best for the country. That is their job. And democracy is choosing your leaders and representatives.
A lot of people were duped into thinking we'd be better off by leaving. Now that the bubble has burst and reality has set in, people need to be told what will happen and how it could affect them.
You mentioned civil unrest - just imagine what will happen if instead of a rainbow and perfect skies we go into a massive recession that sees job losses, lower earnings, a collapse in investment, London ceasing to be Europe's financial hub, the Pound dropping in value like never before in its history, etc. And then the gov't saying, "we knew this would happen but did it anyway." Civil unrest did you say?
What would probably be best - and should happen once you think about it - is to look at the viable options and do a referendum since one of the choices would probably focus on EEA membership. Offer this as option a) with the understanding that it allows the UK to remain part of the Single Market in return, but at the same time the UK must respect the Four Freedoms. And option b) would probably focus on a "hard brexit" that should clearly spell out the dangers associated with it.
A lot of people were duped into thinking we'd be better off by leaving. Now that the bubble has burst and reality has set in, people need to be told what will happen and how it could affect them.
You mentioned civil unrest - just imagine what will happen if instead of a rainbow and perfect skies we go into a massive recession that sees job losses, lower earnings, a collapse in investment, London ceasing to be Europe's financial hub, the Pound dropping in value like never before in its history, etc. And then the gov't saying, "we knew this would happen but did it anyway." Civil unrest did you say?
What would probably be best - and should happen once you think about it - is to look at the viable options and do a referendum since one of the choices would probably focus on EEA membership. Offer this as option a) with the understanding that it allows the UK to remain part of the Single Market in return, but at the same time the UK must respect the Four Freedoms. And option b) would probably focus on a "hard brexit" that should clearly spell out the dangers associated with it.
Oct 24th 2016, 5:37 pm
#479
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 14,040
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
They would be voting on independence from the England, and staying in the EU. Does anyone seriously think that Scotland, Wales and N Ireland wouldn't vote for that? Particularly since the EU would be bending over backwards to help them in that aim?
There will be civil unrest as a result of the impact of hard brexit. There probably wouldn't be if they just put off the whole thing. It would be a very British compromise.
And don't forget, not only was the referendum non-binding, there was also no statement on when.
There will be civil unrest as a result of the impact of hard brexit. There probably wouldn't be if they just put off the whole thing. It would be a very British compromise.
And don't forget, not only was the referendum non-binding, there was also no statement on when.
Oct 24th 2016, 5:49 pm
#480
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,526
Re: Did the UK do the right thing in voting to leave the E.U.
They would be voting on independence from the England, and staying in the EU. Does anyone seriously think that Scotland, Wales and N Ireland wouldn't vote for that? Particularly since the EU would be bending over backwards to help them in that aim?
There will be civil unrest as a result of the impact of hard brexit. There probably wouldn't be if they just put off the whole thing. It would be a very British compromise.
And don't forget, not only was the referendum non-binding, there was also no statement on when.
There will be civil unrest as a result of the impact of hard brexit. There probably wouldn't be if they just put off the whole thing. It would be a very British compromise.
And don't forget, not only was the referendum non-binding, there was also no statement on when.
I've always been a great one for trying to work out the future by looking at the past lessons of history. I dont think any other European country has divorced themselves from Europe more successfully and continuously than the British Isles. It's basically reverting to well entrenched historical form.
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