OzTennis

Just as you say when Labour governments come into power anywhere? The people have spoken, it's a democracy, let them get on with it.

The point is that it was a narrow majority of 70% of the eligible voters who spoke (but a minority of the elected MP's) and a lot of them didn't have a clue about Article 50, how the Brexit would be managed, what it meant as well in terms of access to the single market, farming subsidies, the currency ...... In truth it was a response by many to the immigration issue to vote for Brexit.

But, as you say, the vote was for Brexit so now the laborious process of extraction and undoing treaties set in place over the last 43 years begins .... and it will take years and years and years.

Beoz

You mention farmers. Well small farms are struggling with the tiny EU subsidies they receive. For most family farmers, leaving the EU was a no brainer, their farms are struggling to survive anyway.

For small farmers, Brexit does present the opportunity for Britian to control farming and guide it where it wants, whether that be small farmers go to the wall and smaller niche farms establish themselves as suggested here.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/15/brexit-wont-free-uk-from-paying-for-botched-eu-farming-subsidies-warn-audit-office

Or whether Britain protects and expands its massive export industry.

The bottom line is, the current tiny EU subsidies are not enough to stop small farmers from going to the wall. Change is needed and that's the risk they voted for.

Amazulu

Ridiculous

I've had to live through the destructive, wasteful, hateful and divisive socialist governments of Blair, Brown, Rudd, Gillard etc. Even though I never voted for any of these clowns, I've always accepted that they have been democratically elected

It's not my fault that many people want to to believe in fairy tales rather than reality and keep on electing these muppets. That's just the way it is

Swerv-o

Do you consider the promises of brexit to also be fairy tales as well?


S

Amazulu

Some of them, yes

Rightly or wrongly, Brexit was basically sold to the people of the UK as being about immigration - and they bought it. Migration is a hot topic throughout the west and is a problem, but it's not the only problem

There are many issues with the EU but the UK went into it willingly (a mistake really but that's what happened) and should have kept pushing internal reform - and because resentment to the EU is building across Europe, would have found many allies

Alas not to be

OzTennis

Come in spinner.

OzTennis

As with most things Brexit, the effects of it on farming are very complicated. There's nothing surer that a lot of farmers would go out of business without EU subsidies so do you just replace them with good old British subsidies or let them go to the wall?

Most Tories see subsidies as a socialist idea and a barrier to free trade so logically their answer would be to let them go to the wall after Brexit. The reason they need subsidies is mainly due to British supermarkets who push prices farmers receive down and down so they can compete on price. What other important commodities such as milk go down in price to the producer over time?

Beoz

I wonder if a British subsidy would be as weak as a Euro one. Remember, farmers hate Labor, there's Conservative votes there to be had there.

Good to see the president of the NFU (not really a traditional union. Farmers can't strike) out in Europe negotiating deals. That's what real unions should be doing - adding value to industry like they do in Scandinavia.

OzTennis

The farmers lobby is very weak in the UK due to a lack of numbers (uses 69% of the land and employs 1.5% of the work force) so not a lot of votes to be won there compared to city and town dwellers. They are particularly weak in comparison to the French farmers lobby. 40% of the EU budget goes to the CAP.

Ah for the pre 1973 farming days:

Beoz

You forget the farm workers, contractors, farmer families, rural villages serviced by farmers, all the associated industries living from it.

Go to any village in the UK and ask what will happen to their own livelihoods if farming went under.

Amazulu

The UK lost interest in farming long before they joined the EU - why go to the hassle of growing/rearing food when you can build soulless housing estates on the land was the thinking

Therefore it is now a niche industry there - and will continue to be so after Brexit and is best left to the countries who know what they are doing - USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, SA, Brazil etc

OzTennis

I'm well aware that there are ancillary jobs related to farming and I'm well aware of the consequences if farming goes under for rural communities. I live in a community in rural Scotland where direct and indirect employment in agriculture and forestry is as high as 1 in 3 of the work force. I also know how many farmers in our area depend on EU subsidies and they had a preponderance to vote Remain it must be said. The main villain of the peace as far as they are concerned is the supermarkets who say we'll give you say 20p a litre for their milk and next year it's 18p and the following year 16p as their costs rise. An individual farmer cannot influence the price their product sells for - most other producers have some influence.

Beoz

If only you could. Agriculatural land is protected in the UK.

OzTennis

Britain was the first country to have an agricultural revolution, Britain was the first country to have an industrial revolution, Britain was the first country to have service employment outnumbering goods producing employment ............

The simple fact is that it has been so efficient in primary industry that it only needs 1.5 out of every 100 workers on the land producing food which can be produced in a mid/higher latitude. The food from lower latitude countries has always been imported.

I don't see the small employment in farming as a result of some conscious decision to build soulless housing estates etc - it's a consequence of the huge shift of people from countryside to town and city which industrialisation and continuing improvements in mechanisation has brought. There are literally many hundreds of former farm workers cottages in our area which are either empty, holiday houses or bought up by yuppies who extend them, add a conservatory etc.

The planning regulations in Britain are actually very restrictive and it isn't a simple case of changing farming land into housing. In our area very little agricultural land is zoneable as potential housing.

Beoz

Its not just the consequences for farming communities. Its the entire export market.

Forget the local supermarkets, think export market. For example Britain is the 3rd largest exporter of lamb globally behind NZ and Oz. And when you are on Europes doorstep, that's not small biscuits.

The US has just started import large quantities of meat again.

There's money to be made here and British meat is regarded as the premium product due to the rain fed pastures.

On top of that, the Chinese are attempting to buy large amounts of global farming land as they perceive there to be a world shortage of food soon. Britain is next.

There's no way you want to drive farming to the wall. Its too valuable moving forward.