the troubadour

No worries. The cool aid is usually not far from hand, on such an event. After time consuming, not to say surviving that Scouser ale, you will certainly require a considerable period to adjust.

moneypenny20

That's earlier you thought. At least you're both on the same page, even if it's more for him than you. It's great that you're able to do it at all.

astera

I probably should have narrowed it down to Copenhagen being a boring and uneventful place rather than just mentioning Denmark in general. Luckily it wasn't just me - we had people flying in from several countries, including Australia, and everyone shared similar feelings.

By contrast Helsinki was a much more happenin' place and way more enjoyable. I cannot speak for Sweden unfortunately (a few trips but not to the capital) but I have heard great things about Oslo (only "heard" although I had a great time in Stavanger).

LOL. Surely no big city in Australia could lag 20 years behind Sydney, which is basically just a good stop for cruise ships to dump a few thousand tourists off at Darling Harbour, let them take photos of the bridge and opera, and send them on their way again.

I certainly enjoyed the vibe downtown, even though it doesn't have the feel of a major city, but Fremantle and Cottesloe didn't make much of an impression on me. Then again I might have had drummed-up expectations, especially about the latter.

Beoz

As I have already said, numerous times, word from someone who moved to Perth. Check it out for yourself.

As I have also said before (of course you will choose to gloss over it with your Gold Coast agenda), if you want a holiday to Sydney and you spend your time around Circular Quay and Darling Harbour , the novelty will wear thin quickly.

Get yourself out a bit. There's a small collection of beautiful photos on this thread with some great spots to visit all over the city, far better than being swallowed up in the CBD.

How's the Gold Coast going? Or did you see the light and get the hell out?

the troubadour

I wouldn't go so far as to call Sydney a dump. A hanging offense with certain sensitive souls, that don't want to be informed of such, even if true, while they have mortgaged their life away on falling real estate with not even a roof top harbour view in majority of cases.


No. It has been depreciated of time, with huge costs, a somewhat workaholic lifestyle, necessary like London to afford the style imposed, although pleasant for a holiday, does lack the sense of excitement associated with some European cities, or the quirkiness and quaintness, but has its attractions.






Hardly a city of 'cool' though.........


As for Perth, sound idea to check it out first. Not a city for everyone, by any means.

GarryP

Actually it's suffered through some of the same things London has. The city has a certain cool which attracts people, particularly people with enough money to live anywhere. Money comes in, pushing up the price of everything. Then that money starts to try and throw it's weight around and get councils to 'ban' things it doesn't like - which tend to be the very things that go with that 'cool'. Those who are creative and quirky leave/get pushed out, and what's left is a hollow, soulless, shell. With empty properties owned by the super rich who move on to the next spot.

London has survived by being big enough and keeping the cool one step ahead of the money messing it up (although I'd say that technique has run it's course). Sydney was always skin deep on top of tourist postcard and the lockout laws killed it stone dead (Casinos, you're OK, live music can FO). Melbourne is still surviving, but it's a thin veneer here too. Perth has never had 'cool' really, but maybe it will grow some as the miners and the CoB leave. What else is it going to do?

Beoz

Ah your money agenda again. Something really bad with money happened to you right? Money seems to be the default setting in your posts.

Found this little walk on with weekend. Locals (you know those who know better than to hang around in the CBD) tend to think of Botany Bay as a bit of an airport, port and former refinery, but on the northern side I found a great walk, which includes 2 stunning beaches.

The things you discover right under your nose. And guess what ...... its FREE. You don't even need to pay to park

Little Congwong Beach Walk walking track

Careful though, one had a few nudists on it, if that's not your thing.

Beoz

ha ha ho ho, that's what you want to believe. Be honest here. When was the last time you went to Sydney and did you actually venture beyond the CBD?

I think we know the answer to that.

Speaking of lock out laws, they have actually done good things for Sydney.

Firstly, lock out laws, prohibits people entering hotels, registered clubs, nightclubs and karaoke bars after 1.30am. It does NOT shut these establishments. Its contained to a certain small area of Sydney. An area no one goes to anyway. But should you choose to have a drink in this area, be in a hotel, registered club, nightclub and karaoke bar before 1:30 then stay as long as you like.

Secondly what the laws have done is create new entertainment precincts in other areas and increased the available selection. These areas already existed and were cool, but has made them bigger and better. (maybe not for locals who have to put up with the noise at 5am)

New bars, clubs, pubs, restaurants and cafe's (you can have your karaoke) precincts are popping up all over the place. Double Bay, Newtown, Pyrmont, Surry Hills, Balmain, and to be brutally honest, they are far better places to go than the CBD ever was.

Locals don't go out in the CBD. That's for the dumb tourists like yourself.

Anyhow, it was a bit of a worry at the beginning, but now its better, giving locals and tourists a wider variety and more atmospheric places to enjoy and evening away from the CBD. And its serving is purpose. Alcohol related fighting and assaults is down.

Not sure what they are going to do about fighting and assaults in Melbourne - ban immigrants?

the troubadour

Very much so. Sydney has always appeared to me a city based on superficiality and shallowness. At least to a large extent. I do enjoy some of the walks available over there though. Of course some of the vista's are superb, but that is in spite of the dowdiness around not an enhancement of it. Yes the lock out laws have made it a bit of a laughing stock. I suppose a little akin to London pubs closing in the afternoons, a few decades back. Europeans found that hard to believe.


When Sydney had clear blue water between it and London, it may have been a clincher. In fact I knew a couple, living in an apartment on the Brompton Road in Earls Court, whom were in the proceeds of selling their London gaff, to move to Sydney and could purchase out right a pad with harbour views. Fully over the moon how cheap Sydney was in comparison. That would have been late 80's.


A quick comparison of Time Out magazine a few years ago, showed the disparity between what was on offer in London compared to Sydney with not more than a third at most, cultural events on offer.





You are correct. Perth has never been 'cool'. Desirable for many due to its cheapness compared to Sydney and Melbourne, in housing at onetime, since largely evaporated thanks to the boom, and sunshine and beaches which to date they haven't managed to take away. Although parking can be a hell of a job on weekends.


A city for the aspiring more than creative probably, those that hanker after a suburban lifestyle and child raising. Nothing wrong with that of course, but with so many doing the same thing, creative types at a guess are less likely to 'feel at home'. Besides the inflated costs of course.


An effort has been made by various councils within the metro region to promote the cultural side. I knew a fellow from Melbourne, with a lot of international experience, that was paid very handsomely to develop sculpture within the council locality. This was in the height of the boom, and many will be aware of a rather tremendous amount of money flowing around at the time. Come the downturn a few years back, he was made redundant, and went back over East.


During downturns culture and art tends to take a hit of quite dramatic proportions.


I note that there appears to be no free opening show to this years Festival of Perth compared to previous years. Unless I missed something. Sign of the times perhaps.

the troubadour

I've done most the walks around Sydney and as mentioned is indeed a redeeming feature, but hardly unique to Sydney. Sydney has become largely about money. A shame you couldn't have witnessed the city before it became so struck down by the dreaded affluent virus, than could prove rather deadly in being incurable if/when struck down by this ailment.


I can view nature far more cheaply than in an over rated city like Sydney. As I have said, fine for a holiday. Once ok to live. Time will tell if that situation returns. Meanwhile I'm very happy to be debt free and of independent means.

GarryP

It's actually an interesting perspective on cities and how they operate (and how they can do better).

If you look at some of the words that cities want to associate with themselves, you get :

• Cool
• Culture
• Innovation
• Vibrant
• Entrepreneurial
• Non stop
• Affluent

however, it's that last one that causes the problem. The first set thrives on people having the scope to do them, which means cheap accommodation, little red tape, closely connected and interconnected communities. However money tend to not only push up those all important property prices, it tends to push the communities down and the individual up ("we don't want this lowering the tone") - killing off those key attributes.

If you are going to engineer a working and workable city will all the good bits, you really need to engineer the space for the first set. And that means keeping the money out.

It's almost that you need an Ankh-Morpork, part of the city that via planning controls, differential taxation, by-laws, etc. is maintained as a ideal breeding ground for all the 'good bits' of city life. And it needs to be close to the heart of the city as well - no penthouse apartments. Instead the rich and the breeders need to push towards other areas - not allowed to screw things up.

There's a reason the 'Globe' was built south of the river....

Beoz

I have lived on and off in Sydney and your new comparison city London .... (too different to compare) for many decades.

Housing in both places has never been cheap when you compare to Perth or Birmingham.

There's a reason for that.

They are the best places to live in either country and people want to live there.

If you continue to choose second best (in your case 4th best) you will always have the jealousy and resentment factor invading your mindset.

Only you can solve your problem.

moneypenny20

In your opinion (as well as many others). Incorrect in the minds of millions of others for a variety of reasons. It's called personal choice, one size does not fit all. Sydney, or London for that matter, would not be the best place for me to live and work. I like to visit and I enjoyed, in the main, working in London for 12 years but living in either? No thanks.

Beoz

Any large city is never going have all areas:

• Cool
• Cultural
• Innovative
• Vibrant
• Entrepreneurial
• Non stop
• Affluent

It will have areas which have these attributes and others that don't.

For the areas that don't, it doesn't mean its a crap area. It might be all families 30km from the centre, hardly a place where businesses (who need to remain in business) are going to set up and be:

• Cool
• Culture
• Innovation
• Vibrant
• Entrepreneurial
• Non stop
• Affluent

There's two types of gentrification that occur. Edgy Gentrification and BabyChino Gentrification

Edgy Gentrification occurs when people and businesses need each other. Its a suburb that borders another already happening place, a place which has high density living (terraces or apartments), and convenient transport links to the already happening areas.

Its the young that move, those with the disposal income and desire to spend money, in come the cafes and bars to take that money from the young consumer.

Both service each other and that adds the edginess, vibrancy, non stop, cool factor and ultimately pushes up the popularity of an area making the cost of housing more expensive.

Or you have the BabyChino Gentrification. A very average area but with a couple of gems. A nearby beach or rail connection. It lacks the high density living because it already has large freestanding houses. Families, who are a little bit more wealthy than existing inhabitants, who can't afford their first choice set up there. In come the designer baby shops and the Babychino cafes.

Change is good and shouldn't be stifled.

Beoz

In the eyes of most, they are the best. That's why the most people live in them and they have the highest accommodation cost, along with the highest salaries.

But of course, they aren't for everyone. It would suck if they were for everyone. Nothing else would exist.