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Qualifications?

View Poll Results: What is your level of formal education?
None! Didn't get me where I is through no book learnin'!
3
3.90%
O'Levels / GCSEs / CSEs etc.
7
9.09%
A'Levels etc.
8
10.39%
Vocational Qualifications (NVQ / City & Guilds etc.)
9
11.69%
Bachelor's Degree
27
35.06%
Master's Degree
9
11.69%
Professional Degree (MBA / MD / JD etc.)
6
7.79%
Doctorate
8
10.39%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

Qualifications?

Old Jun 11th 2004, 8:41 pm
  #76  
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Default Re: Qualifications?

Originally posted by dbj1000
Absolutely right! It counts for nothing whatsoever to an intellectual snob like me who is obsessed with paper qualifications.

Geez, lighten up! It was a JOKE.


Do you actually have a job, or do you just obsess all day about what qualifications you possess? I guess you take your little pieces of paper out every so often and drool over them and pat yourself on the back for being such a smart arse.

Oops, sorry, just a JOKE.
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 8:49 pm
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I used to feel sorry for the IT people who were desperately trying to find any kind of job after being laid off from a $150000 (or whatever) a year job. However, I have to admit that after reading some posts here, I don't think I'll feel the same again. Overrated, over employed, overpaid yet so eager to make anti-education propaganda and will be seen reaching "over" to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart sooner or later (or Tesco's for that matter). Not there is anything wrong with working at Wally World but you know what I mean anyway.

In 21st century, paying some employees 6 figures and promoting them all the way up without even expecting them to have some sort of a degree (Community College Degree, ITT Tech Degree, Harvard Degree or Wal-Mart Degree etc.) is just plain ridiculous.

In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point?

To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium.

I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars.
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 9:04 pm
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You can rake in a seven-figure salary and have several PhDs, but if you're not happy, what's the point?
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 9:08 pm
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Originally posted by matt_in_philly
I used to feel sorry for the IT people who were desperately trying to find any kind of job after being laid off from a $150000 (or whatever) a year job. However, I have to admit that after reading some posts here, I don't think I'll feel the same again. Overrated, over employed, overpaid yet so eager to make anti-education propaganda and will be seen reaching "over" to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart sooner or later (or Tesco's for that matter). Not there is anything wrong with working at Wally World but you know what I mean anyway.

In 21st century, paying some employees 6 figures and promoting them all the way up without even expecting them to have some sort of a degree (Community College Degree, ITT Tech Degree, Harvard Degree or Wal-Mart Degree etc.) is just plain ridiculous.

In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point?

To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium.

I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars.
Whatever. We are here, we have no qualifications and we are making money out the wazoo, get over it.
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 9:22 pm
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Originally posted by matt_in_philly
I used to feel sorry for the IT people who were desperately trying to find any kind of job after being laid off from a $150000 (or whatever) a year job. However, I have to admit that after reading some posts here, I don't think I'll feel the same again. Overrated, over employed, overpaid yet so eager to make anti-education propaganda and will be seen reaching "over" to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart sooner or later (or Tesco's for that matter). Not there is anything wrong with working at Wally World but you know what I mean anyway.

In 21st century, paying some employees 6 figures and promoting them all the way up without even expecting them to have some sort of a degree (Community College Degree, ITT Tech Degree, Harvard Degree or Wal-Mart Degree etc.) is just plain ridiculous.

In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point?

To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium.

I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars.

You are correct.

My comment/comeback was in self-defense.

The point I was trying to make. Prior to being attacked was to highlight the fact that not having a degree does not stop you from making very good career progress.

Comparing what I do for a living to a pimp is way off base. To the best of my (limited) knowledge, I work within the law!!!
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 9:28 pm
  #81  
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Originally posted by matt_in_philly
<<snip>>

In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point?

To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium.

I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars.
I think we're dealing with a flavor of the month (maybe of the year) kind of scenario.

When Java first appeared, anybody with Java qualifications and experience could command a high salary (just using Java as an example). A year or two later, those in IT plus those with an eye to getting in the field are acquring the certification and experience. This leads to a glut of those with the qualifications and it comes to a point that employers can pick and choose who they hire.

So, the ball's gone from one side of the court to the other. i.e in the early days, it was the employee who had the upper hand and could make a ridiculous salary for highly desirable and scarce skills. Those days are long gone now since there are so many with the qualifications and varying degrees of experience.

In general, there are some professionals around (let's just stick to the US) that don't have a batchelor's at all, not in any subject. Such people probably have to struggle to acquire skills that would've been learnt at university as well as get on with the job. It's a risk the employer takes when hiring such a person. It's more than just giving a less than formally educated person a break. It's the employer seeing the potential in the person.

To take it further, it's like British educated people trying to get a job. How many of us have had trouble finding any kind of work whilst holding a batchelors' degree. It's the same kind of problem. Perception that we're not good enough for the simply for holding a foreign academic qualification.

That's my 5 cents...
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 9:54 pm
  #82  
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Originally posted by matt_in_philly
I used to feel sorry for the IT people who were desperately trying to find any kind of job after being laid off from a $150000 (or whatever) a year job. However, I have to admit that after reading some posts here, I don't think I'll feel the same again. Overrated, over employed, overpaid yet so eager to make anti-education propaganda and will be seen reaching "over" to stock the shelves at Wal-Mart sooner or later (or Tesco's for that matter). Not there is anything wrong with working at Wally World but you know what I mean anyway.

In 21st century, paying some employees 6 figures and promoting them all the way up without even expecting them to have some sort of a degree (Community College Degree, ITT Tech Degree, Harvard Degree or Wal-Mart Degree etc.) is just plain ridiculous.

In addition to turning the discussion into a pissing contest, "I'm not educated but I make more than you" type of argument is total non-sense and sounds childish in tone. A drug dealer or a pimp who didn't go any further than 6th grade makes more than you do. So, what's your point?

To believe that there is nothing wrong with the fact that the average recent university graduate salary is only $24000 but it is perfectly fine to pay 6 figures to a high school dropout/graduate is the most ridiculous idea since the toilet tank aquarium.

I can understand why a person who worked at the same factory for 20 years, went to school after work or something and finally (well deserved BTW) got promoted, should make more than a brand-spanking-new MIT educated engineer. However, the other examples are just laughable. My calendar says 2004 but I think that some people are stuck with their grandparents' vintage calendars.
Do you want to tell the following people that they are dumasses?

Obsession with academic exam results at the root of failed education policy

Academic exam results are one of the poorest indicators of potential. Many of the world's most successful people left school with few, and sometimes no, qualifications. These include Albert Einstein (scientist), Soichira Honda (founder of Honda Motor Corporation), Ray Kroc (founder of MacDonalds), Pete Waterman (multi-millionaire record producer), Richard Branson (multimillionaire entrepreneur and inspiration), Philip Green (self-made millionaire businessman and CEO of BHS [British Home Stores]) etc. It could even be said that a surfeit of academic qualifications might condemn one to a life of mediocrity.

As Mark Twain said, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education".
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 10:38 pm
  #83  
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Effi - As I mentioned earlier.. my degree got me a foot in the door... it didn't teach me anything. The only reason I do the job I do.. is because I love it, it was a hobby/obsession before my degree and it became my life afterwards.

there is definitely something in what you are saying, I know people who have degrees, PhD's, more academic papers published that you would believe... but give them a real world problem, an actual application of their knowledge and the walls of inteligence (cough!) crumble.

I am one of those people who went to Uni because I didn't know what to do, and while at uni I just continued with my hobby.. the degree (as mentioned earlier) gave me a foot in the door and was a pain ass, it interfered with my learning the tricks of my trade.

so whilst I do use some high level math, most of what I do was self taught and borne of bedroom shenanigans when I should have been working on my tutorials.
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 10:58 pm
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Originally posted by USBound
Effi - As I mentioned earlier.. my degree got me a foot in the door... it didn't teach me anything. The only reason I do the job I do.. is because I love it, it was a hobby/obsession before my degree and it became my life afterwards.

there is definitely something in what you are saying, I know people who have degrees, PhD's, more academic papers published that you would believe... but give them a real world problem, an actual application of their knowledge and the walls of inteligence (cough!) crumble.

I am one of those people who went to Uni because I didn't know what to do, and while at uni I just continued with my hobby.. the degree (as mentioned earlier) gave me a foot in the door and was a pain ass, it interfered with my learning the tricks of my trade.

so whilst I do use some high level math, most of what I do was self taught and borne of bedroom shenanigans when I should have been working on my tutorials.
Bedroom shenanigans eh, so what are you, a porn star? Sorry, could not resist that.

I have worked for people with Phds and most of them were the dumbest people I have ever met. They had absolutely no common sense and unless they were doing what they were trained/studied to do, they were lost. Most of them could not even switch on their computers, yet these were people who wrote and had published, high level papers, owned patents etc. I sometimes wish I were more educated and had made the effort to go back to school and get some kind of qualification. I did actually do one course in english language and managed to get a measly 'O' level when I was 40ish. Being a military wife for 25 years though robbed me of the chance. We moved on average every 2 years, and the rest of the time I was just so busy trying to earn a living and pay bills, I did not have time for anything else. I have worked non stop (until recently) since I left school at 15 and am now 52, and I have to say I am extremely happy with my lot in life. Having no qualifications has not robbed me of being able to do whatever kind of job I have gone after over the years.

Some of the jobs I have had came as a result of just getting my foot in the door in a menial role. People obviously recognised something and I did not remain in the menial positions for very long. I do understand the need for the elusive piece of paper as I call it, especially here in the US where everyone seems to be obsessed with having some kind of qualification. Like I said though, it has not held me or my husband back from earning an extremely good living.
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Old Jun 11th 2004, 11:02 pm
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I make computer games, low level engine programmer.
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Old Jun 12th 2004, 12:10 am
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I don't think that anyone without a degree is a slacker. For many, the opportunity for further education was not available when they left school. I know when I was 17 and finishing HS it was imperative that I go and get a job. My parents could barely afford to keep the 4 kids they had, putting one of us thru tertiary education was out of the question. I know now there were options available, but at that time I wasn't even shown by the school how to apply to go to University. I was a girl so it was assumed that learning to type and work in an office was good enough for me. I did my degree as a mature student, I had just passed my 39th birthday when I took my last exam. Without a doubt I am glad that I did it, because it did give me some kind of personal validation, improved my self confidence and self worth. I know it is only a piece of paper, but now that I am back in the job market it has made a difference.

As to that piece of paper being an indication of intelligence, that I am not convinced of. Some of the stuff I did I am sure a trained monkey could have learnt. Also with regards to working with those with multiple qualifications, well we all have worked with some who have paper qualifications coming out of the wazoo but are totally incapable of getting by in the work environment.

I do think that the US is obsessed with one having that piece of paper. I always think that graduating HS outside the US is equal to a couple of years of US college. Having a college degree from outside the US is like a US masters. I did some courses in the US at UCSD which is supposed to be a top 50 Uni and what a joke. If you failed those you had not right to be studying.
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Old Jun 12th 2004, 12:29 am
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There is a huge emphasis on having a degree in the US and I know that it's definitely one factor that's holding me back over here that never did in the UK.

In my opinion it remains questionable the value of a piece of paper to prove anyone's ability to do any kind of job. I work with a number of people that have US degrees and find them all to be conscientious, accurate and reasonably hard working. The thing they do lack though, is imagination, creativity and the ability to question the processes that they follow each day, even when they are faced with the same problems. Is this the result of further education in the US??

Not sure if it's that or the fear of seeming insubbordinate, I know that with my background in the UK I can be controversial and raise a few eyebrows with some of the questions I ask over here!
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Old Jun 12th 2004, 1:21 am
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Originally posted by RoB1833
There is a huge emphasis on having a degree in the US and I know that it's definitely one factor that's holding me back over here that never did in the UK.

In my opinion it remains questionable the value of a piece of paper to prove anyone's ability to do any kind of job. I work with a number of people that have US degrees and find them all to be conscientious, accurate and reasonably hard working. The thing they do lack though, is imagination, creativity and the ability to question the processes that they follow each day, even when they are faced with the same problems. Is this the result of further education in the US??

Not sure if it's that or the fear of seeming insubbordinate, I know that with my background in the UK I can be controversial and raise a few eyebrows with some of the questions I ask over here!
Me too, I am considered to be a bit of a gob shite, not in a bad way, but I want to know what is going on and why. Like you said it is something the Americans seem to shy away from.
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Old Jun 12th 2004, 1:26 am
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Originally posted by Vicky88
I don't think that anyone without a degree is a slacker. For many, the opportunity for further education was not available when they left school. I know when I was 17 and finishing HS it was imperative that I go and get a job. My parents could barely afford to keep the 4 kids they had, putting one of us thru tertiary education was out of the question. I know now there were options available, but at that time I wasn't even shown by the school how to apply to go to University. I was a girl so it was assumed that learning to type and work in an office was good enough for me. I did my degree as a mature student, I had just passed my 39th birthday when I took my last exam. Without a doubt I am glad that I did it, because it did give me some kind of personal validation, improved my self confidence and self worth. I know it is only a piece of paper, but now that I am back in the job market it has made a difference.

As to that piece of paper being an indication of intelligence, that I am not convinced of. Some of the stuff I did I am sure a trained monkey could have learnt. Also with regards to working with those with multiple qualifications, well we all have worked with some who have paper qualifications coming out of the wazoo but are totally incapable of getting by in the work environment.

I do think that the US is obsessed with one having that piece of paper. I always think that graduating HS outside the US is equal to a couple of years of US college. Having a college degree from outside the US is like a US masters. I did some courses in the US at UCSD which is supposed to be a top 50 Uni and what a joke. If you failed those you had not right to be studying.
I too left school not knowing where to go. I had actually passed my nursing entrance exam when I was 15 and still in school. I had to wait until I was 17 though to start training. Needless to say, by the time I was 17 I had moved on and had actually joined the WRAF and started training as an air traffic controller so never went back to pursue that career. I have often regretted it over the years, but hey you make the most of what you are doing. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Boy I sometimes wish i knew back then what I know now though, I am sure things would be a lot different for me.
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Old Jun 12th 2004, 1:29 am
  #90  
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Default Re: Qualifications?

Originally posted by effi
Do you actually have a job, or do you just obsess all day about what qualifications you possess? I guess you take your little pieces of paper out every so often and drool over them and pat yourself on the back for being such a smart arse.

Oops, sorry, just a JOKE.
Effi, I'm genuinely sorry. Re-reading the thread, my "joke" came across as pretty aggressive, and that's not how I meant it at all.

I don't see that there's any argument to have here. You and your husband have done extremely well without having degrees. You're also 20 years older than me, and your experiences have been very different to mine.

There is no way I could have achived what I have now without my degrees. You can call them "elusive bits of paper" all you like, but it simply isn't possible to do what I am doing without a degree at the very least. That's not the case for all jobs, but neither is it true that you can do any job with sufficient hard work and experience. I'm not trying to belittle anyone who has achieved a great career with little formal education - my hat is off to anyone who can do so - I'm just saying that degrees are a necessity for many jobs now.
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