Patrick Hasler

Before I became fully legal here

i had a summons as a prosecution witness .... I entered through the border from Canada once without a waiver in my passport which sent alarm bells ringing with the guard. I showed him the summons adn he let me in.

exvj

I see it as a patriotic chore (apologies to kenny rogers) rather than an 'advantage'

especially when the 'bad guys' get out and go kill all the jurors who found them guilty - just joking - er hum

Some people must see it as an 'advantage' to have the possibility of having their child available for the US army.

When I come across these ideas it reminds me of how 'foreign' i am - makes me uneasy about becoming an american

It's like trying to convince a world war 2 japanese soldier about emperor gods and suicide etc - there is simply no meeting of minds and the culture difference is just too vast

I am not saying your ideas are wrong - they are just foreign to the average Brit who thinks that serving on a jury is a drag and a chore and possibly a disagreable duty - but not an 'advantage' of being British - anyone who has served on a jury would try and get out of serving twice


nobody receives a jury summons and says wow i am so glad i am british so i can do this and cancel my holiday in tenerife

Giantaxe

I think you can both find jury duty a "drag" and realize that the jury system is the foundation of the justice system in both the UK and US. Without a supply of willing jurors, the system either breaks down or the pool of people who actually show up becomes a very poor reflection of society as a whole. Hence why I think people should be happy to serve on juries, even if it is inconvenient, a drag, or whatever.

exvj

Like the OJ trial for instance...

It depend on how free thinking you are about how society ACTUALLY functions, rather than the high minded theoretical version

Some of the most civic talking people are the most corrupt in reality and politicians talk in very high minded patriotic/civic terms in order to talk people into giving up their lives in false causes. Eternal vigilance about seemingly patriotic and high minded civic people is the price of staying alive sometimes

When Winston Churchill stood on a pile of bomb rubble in London and said 'We can take it', the women told him to go forth and multiply then they said 'It's us that's taking it mate - not you'

He was 80 feet down in his bunker and they were up top

I am instinctivily averse to nationalistic/patriotic talk which has sent millions of people to their deaths including 600 thousand americans in the civil war

Juswus

to me that's the best reason I've heard yet TO become a citizen.

I loved doing jury duty in UK

cindyabs

Whoa, whoa, whoa-I'm curious, what would you have done to avert the Civil War? Mind you, I felt that preserving the Union came at an exorbitant cost, but I'm curious. Would you have agreed to split the country in half and leave it that way?

At what point should nationalistic and patriotic talk be muted?


I agree with Giantaxe, whether it is convenient or not, serving on a jury goes with the territory of being a citizen of the country you reside in. It's not something done on a weekly basis and hardly equates with getting a draft notice.

Jerseygirl

If everyone tried to get out of jury service what a mess we would be in. I suspect the very same people who do not want to serve would be the first to complain if the judge decided who was or wasn't guilty.

Giantaxe

So we shouldn't do jury duty because 600k Americans died in the civil war? Glad we got that one sorted out; it had been really bothering me.

Redwing

[QUOTE=Giantaxe;7209010]I disagree. Participating in civic duties such as serving on a jury strikes me as an advantage of being a citizen of the country you live in.

I agree. I have been called 3 times, and each time I was elected foreman. They thought, with an English accent, I would sound better when talking to the judge. I had to step down in one instance. The defendent, who was up for DUI, had been on a previous jury with me.

joto

I had a summons 2 times before I was a citizen. Last year I got one about a month after I became a citizen. I couldn't get out of serving on the jury this time (didn't have a good enough excuse). The trial (civil) lasted about 10 days. 8 days listening to everything and 2 days for jury discussions. At least I got paid from work and the court gave us a small stipend. Don't knock it, it's a good excuse to bog off work, but don't fall asleep, that part's hard.

Juswus

[QUOTE=Redwing;7209632]

that must have been weird

chartreuse

Never been called for Jury duty. I've been to court loads of times, as a prosecution witness, but the buggers always went guilty at the last minute, so I've never had to perform.

I think perhaps what exvj is trying to say is that, once you've seen a few blokes go down and realised "I did that" it doesn't look like fun and games any more.

Redwing

[QUOTE=Juswus;7209921] You've got that right. Since the individual hardly said a word during the jury discussions, it had me wondering.

cindyabs

The last jury selection I went to had the defending attorney's father AND the exwife of the defendant called,

exvj

Yes I have been a prosecution witness many times - not just during my time with the Police. I have been trailed back and forth for months as a witness in a fraud case and I did my civic duty by holding down a knife wielding burglar who had broken into a neighbour's house and he had a syringe in his back pocket too - so I am not against doing my civic duty when it's expressed in practical terms

But having been round the court system so much, I didn't find it a joy and a privilege to be called - it's a chore to me - and better done by those who are eager to do it

On the naturalization issue - day to day life in the USA is much better than the UK in many ways and I find the neighbours much nicer and friendlier and there is no litter or yobs - it's much better. A neighbour came round yesterday to ask where I bought my roof shingles as his are the same pattern. I was really chuffed to give him some brand new ones and the correct nails and I made a friend. Yes I like American society at it's base level.

Where I feel uncomfortable is all this overly patriotic stuff which I see as Nationalistic. and even the expression that jury service is a wonderful reason to naturalize is a bit foreign and too much nationalistic fervour for me.

I think I come from a family which is bitter about war and nationalism and it's effect on them over generations. My grandad didnt want to volunteer for the first war as he was 33 with 5 small children - one disabled. They called him up and he was killed within weeks. My grandmother had to take in washing from the whole village to survive - there were no men to remarry.

My dad (who was 18 months old when his dad was killed) was called up for for the second war 2 weeks after he was married in 1939. They shipped him to the Falkland Islands to stop German submarines going round cape horn and he came back briefly in 1942 before being shipped to Burma to fight the Japanese in the jungle. He got home in 1946. My mother said he was like an animal and it took 2 years to get him near civilised.

He was like the rest of the servicemen and couldnt wait to vote Churchill out and get a national health service,

His family had seen all this drum beating at first hand and had had enough of war. Churchill wanted to attack Russia but the people said NO, we have had enough of all this.

So I have been brought up to be most wary of all these 'high ideals' being used by politicians to get my family butchered and torn asunder

This hasnt changed my approach to civic duty in 'real ' settings - I am there for 'real' people without hesitation but not for concepts which are painted in the sky by politicians in order to sucker people into sacrificing for their adventures

50 thousand dead in vietnam and half a million wounded mentally and physically - and millions of Vietnamese who are equal humans too - for what ?

The Iraq thing - in 18 months the troops will be home and all the limbless and lifetime injured in the US and 100 thousand Iraqis dead - for what ?

So I have rambled on a bit - but I just want to say that I am as patriotic and civic minded as most - and more than most in 'real' situations, but when it's elevated to these mystical concepts, I get suspicious that 'they' are trying to sucker me.

As I say, I feel most comfortable in American society at the ordinary level, and even prefer it to English society most times, but I know that the legal system, the scruffy fat brutal policing methods, the lack of social care for the weak, the total refusal to ever prosecute American service people/CIA for war crimes, and 'over the top' nationalism which smacks of Nurenberg etc etc are so foreign to me . 'My country right or wrong' was tried in Germany in 1933 and we know the result. It is those things that make me doubt whether I want to naturalize. I can never feel 'at one' with all that, so there would always be some reservation.


I suspect my decision will be based on more mundane considerations, and then I will just have to keep my mouth shut if I do