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Guns?

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Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:09 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by anotherlimey
The trouble is, even with a gun you haven't got a hope anyway once the mugger had pulled the gun. The criminal has the upper hand 99% of the time because they know exactly what they are going to do.
I disagree. Most of the time they havent got a clue what they are going to do. Your average street punk is generally clueless and will freak as much as most people.

It comes down to how people are. The majority of people wander around under the illusion that bad things happen to other people and even then the authorities will sort it out for them. They are sadly very surprised when both these turn out to be false.

Originally Posted by anotherlimey
What's needed is a way to address the wider issues related to people mugging each other.
Wouldnt thay be nice? Except while there are Humans on the planet then Humans will keep doing nasty things to each other.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:13 am
  #92  
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Originally Posted by anotherlimey
Because you're assuming everyone obeys the law. How many of the gun related homicides were with legal weapons?

Im assuming nothing of the sort. I KNOW that people dont obey the law. It used to be my job to stop that.

You need to clarify that question. Do you mean by people who were legally entitled to hold that gun? Or by weapons that are not federally banned?
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:13 am
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
I disagree. Most of the time they havent got a clue what they are going to do. Your average street punk is generally clueless and will freak as much as most people.

It comes down to how people are. The majority of people wander around under the illusion that bad things happen to other people and even then the authorities will sort it out for them. They are sadly very surprised when both these turn out to be false.
I thought you were an ex-soldier? If so you know as well as I do the element of surprise in a one-on-one fight increases your chances of winning to a wide margin.

It's not related to how stupid the criminal is, it's more to do with them thinking "OK I'm gonna walk up behind this guy, put a gun to his head and ask for his cash." That is all he needs to be thinking and he already has the upper hand unless you want to live your life in fear and always be thinking "Is that a mugger behind me, or just someone out for a late night stroll?".
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:14 am
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
Im assuming nothing of the sort. I KNOW that people dont obey the law. It used to be my job to stop that.

You need to clarify that question. Do you mean by people who were legally entitled to hold that gun? Or by weapons that are not federally banned?
By someone who was legally entitled to have a gun (any gun).
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:15 am
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Dant3
So I'm presuming then that those small midwestern towns in the 19th century, where every man had a gun hanging from his belt, never experienced violence.
Of course they did. But humans will always be stupid as well as violent.

Do criminals prefer homes that arent alarmed to rob? Of course.
Do criminals prefer cars that arent alarmed to rob? Of course.
Do criminals prefer easy targets? Of course they do.

Listen, if you are happy walking around under the illusion that nothing bad will ever happen to you and the police will be there if it does, then dont let me stop you.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:19 am
  #96  
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
Of course they did. But humans will always be stupid as well as violent.

Do criminals prefer homes that arent alarmed to rob? Of course.
Do criminals prefer cars that arent alarmed to rob? Of course.
Do criminals prefer easy targets? Of course they do.

Listen, if you are happy walking around under the illusion that nothing bad will ever happen to you and the police will be there if it does, then dont let me stop you.
Yes, we all know it could happen. But

a) Will your house get burgled even with an alarm - yes
b) Will your car get stolen even with an alarm - yes
c) Could you get killed in a mugging even though you have a gun - yes

Having a gun is like fire fighting, the problem is already there.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:19 am
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Originally Posted by anotherlimey
By someone who was legally entitled to have a gun (any gun).
I dont have those figures to hand, but I do believe that there has never been a felony commited by someone who has a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon.

As far as legally entitled to own a gun then (in most states) that would be any non-felon and those not convicted of certain violent misdemeanours. It it unlikely that many deliberate homicides have been commited by those.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:21 am
  #98  
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Originally Posted by anotherlimey
Yes, we all know it could happen. But

a) Will your house get burgled even with an alarm - yes
b) Will your car get stolen even with an alarm - yes
c) Could you get killed in a mugging even though you have a gun - yes

Having a gun is like fire fighting, the problem is already there.
But in all cases you are far less likely to have it happen. Personally I prefer to be responsible for my own personal protection.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:21 am
  #99  
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
I dont have those figures to hand, but I do believe that there has never been a felony commited by someone who has a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon.

As far as legally entitled to own a gun then (in most states) that would be any non-felon and those not convicted of certain violent misdemeanours. It it unlikely that many deliberate homicides have been commited by those.
I bet there's loads of homicides comitted with 'legal' weapons, whether it's someone taking a relatives gun or 'borrowing' it.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:22 am
  #100  
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
Listen, if you are happy walking around under the illusion that nothing bad will ever happen to you and the police will be there if it does, then dont let me stop you.
You know, that is EXACTLY the illusion I wish to walk around under. In fact, it's the illusion I've been walking around under my whole life. It's an illusion that has led me into friendships with people I shouldn't have been friends with and led me into fascinating areas of cities I should never have stepped foot in. For all your pessimistic view of humanity, I remain absolutely convinced that the vast and overwhelming majority of people are good and honest people, and until one of them prooves otherwise, I will continue to treat them as such.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:24 am
  #101  
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
But in all cases you are far less likely to have it happen. Personally I prefer to be responsible for my own personal protection.
No way sonny jimbo. It's an illusion. Car alarms (unless they're very good) won't stop your car getting stolen. House alarms won't stop your house being burgled. A gun won't stop you being killed by a mugger/home intruder or what ever else.

From this page: http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.

-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)
However that's an anti-gun site.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:25 am
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Dant3
You know, that is EXACTLY the illusion I wish to walk around under. In fact, it's the illusion I've been walking around under my whole life. It's an illusion that has led me into friendships with people I shouldn't have been friends with and led me into fascinating areas of cities I should never have stepped foot in. For all your pessimistic view of humanity, I remain absolutely convinced that the vast and overwhelming majority of people are good and honest people, and until one of them prooves otherwise, I will continue to treat them as such.

Good for you. I dont have a pessimistic view of society, more a realistic one. Having dealt for many years with the dregs of society I know what people are capable of and plenty have proven to me what they can and will do. Yet I too will go to places sense tells me not to and engage people who I probably shouldnt. I am just not under any illusions about them.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:27 am
  #103  
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Default Re: Guns?

Here's a surprising fact:

Suicide is still the leading cause of firearm death in the U.S., representing 56% of total 2002 gun deaths nationwide. In 2002, the U.S. firearm suicide total was 17,108, a 1% increase from 2001 numbers. Total gun suicides in Illinois for 2002 were 466, a decrease of 8% from the 2001 numbers. Most suicides in the U.S. are committed with firearms.

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2005.
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:28 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Guns?

and another one:

While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used to commit a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than to be used in self-defense.

-A Kellerman, et al. Journal of Trauma, August 1998; Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu.Rev Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40.)
 
Old Jun 9th 2005 | 8:31 am
  #105  
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Default Re: Guns?

Originally Posted by ImHere
Good for you. I dont have a pessimistic view of society, more a realistic one. Having dealt for many years with the dregs of society I know what people are capable of and plenty have proven to me what they can and will do. Yet I too will go to places sense tells me not to and engage people who I probably shouldnt. I am just not under any illusions about them.
What caused you to meet such dregs of society? A lot of people I know in the police and military quickly developed a similar impression of humanity. On a smaller scale, when I taught in some of the roughest estates in the country, it was easy to believe that all parents were heroin addicted, child abusing cretins. But they're not. The number of 'bad' people comprise such a tiny minority that it really isn't worth worrying about them. And having had a job that brought you into close proximity with this minority, doesn't make the threat they pose any more legitimate.
 


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