Originally Posted by anotherlimey

It's not that much different in many parts of the US.

Originally Posted by fatbrit

BNP types do heavily influence a party in America -- namely, the GOP!

Originally Posted by Seahorse3

I guess there is no fringe of the democratic party. There are no kooks or nuts just normal everyday people. NOT!!!!!
Your party is run by the fringe. The true democratic party was discarded years ago.

Originally Posted by pgtips

All of a sudden we are swooped on by about 20 police officers, surrounded by their cars and vans, and told to get out of the vehicle and stand up against a wall with our hands in the air and our backs to them.
They then search through all our pockets, search the car, even removing a couple of panels.
Now this indignity is happening in front of hoardes of shoppers in one of the busiest streets in the world.
After they found nothing, they just said you can go now, NO APOLOGY !!! Just a note that they were looking for drugs.
Our crime, being young black men driving around in a nice car, well dressed and groomed. SO WE MUST BE DRUG DEALERS !!!!

Originally Posted by pgtips

Do you know what it is like in Miami ?
We have some good friends who said we would do well across there.
I come from an IT and insurance background and my wife is a teacher.
We have friends who live in an area called 'Hollywood' in Miami' and that is where we will visit next in the States.

I was in New Jersey on holiday a couple of years ago and stayed in West Orange. Although the area seemed nice enough I never really felt at ease and the people there seemed a bit cold.

I was treated nicely by the shop attendants in Boston and also the customer service I recieved in Canada was brilliant. I was actually addressed as 'sir' on many occasions and was made to feel very special and they were so welcoming.

Originally Posted by Ray

Well I have the exact same scenario ..searched from head to foot ...
all because the PNC came back with a car ownership that did not match
the driver and passenger..actually quite good policing ...
and we were both white ....

Originally Posted by pgtips

You have raised some good points, however until you are able to live in my skin you will never have a true appreciation of what it is like to be a black man in England, nor would I wish it on you.

As I said before sometimes the mental damage done is even worse than the physical damage.

Imagine after 20 years since I started driving my heart still times misses a beat if I see a police car behind me, because in the past that surely would have meant I was going to be stopped, maybe my car searched, and if I said the wrong thing could lead to me being taken down the station and getting a good kicking in !!! I don't think I have to spell out the amount of black men who have mysteriously died in police custody in the UK.

Imagine the indignity of being harassed by the police just for sitting in the car with your girlfriend one evening whilst having conversation outside her own house.

Police : Could you step out of the car
Me : Why
Police: We have just got notice that a car like this has been stolen in this area.
Me: If I had stolen it, why would I be sitting outside my girlfriends house in it for all to see.
Police: Can you prove it is yours ?
Me: Yes, and so can you just check it on your data base.
Police: What is your name:
Me: Give them my full name.
Police: Have you been drinking:
Me: No, But I am sitting in a stationary car outside my girlfriends house.
Police: Let us see you walk in a straight line
Me: I oblige
Police: What is your name again
Me: I saw you write it down already
Police: can you spell your name backwards

Girlfriend, screams at the top of her voice for all to here what do you think your playing at, what sort of police are you !!!

Me: very much on edge
Police: You can go now
Me: I was not going anywhere, just sitting peacefully outside my girlfreibnds house in my own car, paid with my hard earned money, minding my own business:

Another occasion

This time in one of Londons busiest shopping areas, Oxford Street.
My friend who works in accounts had treated himself to a newish car and had it nicely done up. So here we are suited and booted, fresh hair cuts, nice smelling after shave, young, handsome and successful, life could not be better................. or so you would think......

All of a sudden we are swooped on by about 20 police officers, surrounded by their cars and vans, and told to get out of the vehicle and stand up against a wall with our hands in the air and our backs to them.

They then search through all our pockets, search the car, even removing a couple of panels.

Now this indignity is happening in front of hoardes of shoppers in one of the busiest streets in the world.

After they found nothing, they just said you can go now, NO APOLOGY !!! Just a note that they were looking for drugs.

Our crime, being young black men driving around in a nice car, well dressed and groomed. SO WE MUST BE DRUG DEALERS !!!!

Lets move on to what it is like being a young black man in England.
You enter a shop and all the shop keepers eyes are on you, because they are convinced you are about to steal something, so you just have miserable shopping experiences !!!

Lets move on to whats its like being a young black man in England.
You are newly married and are ready to rent an apartment, you call the owner because it is local and arrange to meet him there in 30 minutes.
You get there early with your wife and ring the door bell.
The white owner takes one look at you and says the apartment is no longer for rent !!!

You go to view an apartment in Putney which is for sale.
The owner is keen to sell, you like the apartment so offer the full asking price and he accepts. Bingo, you are elated, finally on the property ladder oh so you thought !!! The next day the agent phones you and say's there is a problem, whilst viewing one of the other owners in the block saw us, and before any new person can move in the block it has to go through the tenants association. They told the owner, that they would block the sale to me, as they did not want that sort moving in.

I went to see the apartment after work in a smart suit, but as long as my face was black they would block the purchase.

Or what about when you turn up for the interview and as soon as you get that limp handshake you know you have not got the job, whatever your experience or qualifications.

Do you know what it feels like having to eat lunch alone, whilst other members of your team are giggling the lunch hour away on a separate table, or being wary of going to certain areas, unsure of weather you will be welcomed. It was not that long ago, that we were not welcomed at certain hotels and restaurants, and still some nightclubs are a no no.

I hope now you may see why I would not wish this on you, and believe me I have just touched the tip of the iceberg.

You question affirmative action, I recommend you read the story of Rosa Parks and Dr Martin Luther King jnr, and then after come back and tell me whether you still question affirmative action ?

Originally Posted by Cape Blue

. I just find it hard to understand how one combats historic racism by creating current racism.

Originally Posted by pgtips

Come on Cape blue, you seem a very resonable person, but surely you must know how far set back black people were in America, in some states it was only 30-40 years ago when the situation was not much better than the apartheid system in South Africa.

White America has had hundreds of years to gather and accumulate wealth, sometimes quite brutally using slave labour. This wealth has been passed down the generations hence white America is leaps and bounds ahead of black folk. White America has inherited wealth, just as Britain has brutally inherited wealth, that is common knowledge.

If everybody started at a level playing field I would be the first to disagree with affirmative action, but that is not the case and I do not think it will happen in my generation, and my hope is that things improve for my sons.

If there was affirmative action in the UK, I have no doubt I would be leaps and bounds ahead of where I am now, but still, despite all the setbacks I have still managed to pull through somehow.

Originally Posted by pgtips

You have raised some good points, however until you are able to live in my skin you will never have a true appreciation of what it is like to be a black man in England, nor would I wish it on you.

As I said before sometimes the mental damage done is even worse than the physical damage.

Imagine after 20 years since I started driving my heart still times misses a beat if I see a police car behind me, because in the past that surely would have meant I was going to be stopped, maybe my car searched, and if I said the wrong thing could lead to me being taken down the station and getting a good kicking in !!! I don't think I have to spell out the amount of black men who have mysteriously died in police custody in the UK.

Imagine the indignity of being harassed by the police just for sitting in the car with your girlfriend one evening whilst having conversation outside her own house.

Police : Could you step out of the car
Me : Why
Police: We have just got notice that a car like this has been stolen in this area.
Me: If I had stolen it, why would I be sitting outside my girlfriends house in it for all to see.
Police: Can you prove it is yours ?
Me: Yes, and so can you just check it on your data base.
Police: What is your name:
Me: Give them my full name.
Police: Have you been drinking:
Me: No, But I am sitting in a stationary car outside my girlfriends house.
Police: Let us see you walk in a straight line
Me: I oblige
Police: What is your name again
Me: I saw you write it down already
Police: can you spell your name backwards

Girlfriend, screams at the top of her voice for all to here what do you think your playing at, what sort of police are you !!!

Me: very much on edge
Police: You can go now
Me: I was not going anywhere, just sitting peacefully outside my girlfreibnds house in my own car, paid with my hard earned money, minding my own business:

Another occasion

This time in one of Londons busiest shopping areas, Oxford Street.
My friend who works in accounts had treated himself to a newish car and had it nicely done up. So here we are suited and booted, fresh hair cuts, nice smelling after shave, young, handsome and successful, life could not be better................. or so you would think......

All of a sudden we are swooped on by about 20 police officers, surrounded by their cars and vans, and told to get out of the vehicle and stand up against a wall with our hands in the air and our backs to them.

They then search through all our pockets, search the car, even removing a couple of panels.

Now this indignity is happening in front of hoardes of shoppers in one of the busiest streets in the world.

After they found nothing, they just said you can go now, NO APOLOGY !!! Just a note that they were looking for drugs.

Our crime, being young black men driving around in a nice car, well dressed and groomed. SO WE MUST BE DRUG DEALERS !!!!

Lets move on to what it is like being a young black man in England.
You enter a shop and all the shop keepers eyes are on you, because they are convinced you are about to steal something, so you just have miserable shopping experiences !!!

Lets move on to whats its like being a young black man in England.
You are newly married and are ready to rent an apartment, you call the owner because it is local and arrange to meet him there in 30 minutes.
You get there early with your wife and ring the door bell.
The white owner takes one look at you and says the apartment is no longer for rent !!!

You go to view an apartment in Putney which is for sale.
The owner is keen to sell, you like the apartment so offer the full asking price and he accepts. Bingo, you are elated, finally on the property ladder oh so you thought !!! The next day the agent phones you and say's there is a problem, whilst viewing one of the other owners in the block saw us, and before any new person can move in the block it has to go through the tenants association. They told the owner, that they would block the sale to me, as they did not want that sort moving in.

I went to see the apartment after work in a smart suit, but as long as my face was black they would block the purchase.

Or what about when you turn up for the interview and as soon as you get that limp handshake you know you have not got the job, whatever your experience or qualifications.

Do you know what it feels like having to eat lunch alone, whilst other members of your team are giggling the lunch hour away on a separate table, or being wary of going to certain areas, unsure of weather you will be welcomed. It was not that long ago, that we were not welcomed at certain hotels and restaurants, and still some nightclubs are a no no.

I hope now you may see why I would not wish this on you, and believe me I have just touched the tip of the iceberg.

You question affirmative action, I recommend you read the story of Rosa Parks and Dr Martin Luther King jnr, and then after come back and tell me whether you still question affirmative action ?

Originally Posted by veryfunny

You are not alone, just surprises me how some people are so oblivious to this.

Originally Posted by pgtips

Not quite the same, our PNC on all occassions matched us but still we have to go through the rigmarole.

Originally Posted by another bloody yank

I think affirmative action programs are very good at showing the people they profess to benefit that success is impossible for them without government aid. There's nothing unhealthy about that, is there? Nothing like perpetuating a cycle...

Originally Posted by anotherlimey

What worries me is that anyone thinks it's much different in the US.

You want racist police, you got them.
You want racist shopkeepers, you got them.
You want racist landlords, you got them.
You want racist homeowners associations, you got them.
You want racist employers, you got them.

It's the same everywhere. I don't know why anyone would think Federal laws have helped, half the country is still living in the 50s when it comes to civil rights or equal opportunities.