RoadWarriorFromLP

But it doesn't work in this case. You don't fix centuries of wrong with a (faked) smile and a handshake.

Affirmative action is the equivalent of the handicapped parking space. It puts aside faux-idealism, acknowledges the disadvantages of the victim, and attempts to make it easier for them to get to the shop door, even though it will nonetheless be more difficult for him to get there.

We don't envy the guy in the wheelchair or begrudge him his parking "advantage" because at the end of the day, it's still preferable to have legs that work. Centuries of affirmative action for whites gave them access to immense resources that they did not earn through merit, and the affirmative action of today makes an effort to correct for those many years of misallocated resources.

If you are a white beneficiary of privilege by virtue of your race, you've got a bit of nerve denying that advantage to someone else who wasn't blessed with it. There will come a day when it is appropriate to eliminate affirmative action, but that day will come only when threads like this can honestly speak of racism in the past tense. Until then, rejoice that you are able to walk well enough to walk a bit further from your parking space. (With the American diet, we could all probably benefit from the extra walk, anyway.)

Leslie

Bravo!!!

Cape Blue

"A white beneficiary of privilege by virtue of your race" - oh please, you'll be talking about the black tax next.

you analogy is incorrect, the disabled person has a harder time than all able bodied people when it comes to distance from the shop door.

the average poor black person is no different than the average poor white (latino, asian etc) person - they both suffer from a lack of education and accumulated parental wealth, they both start at the same point in life (distance from the shop door if you like) and both have the same opportunities to get to the shop door.

In the past their parents/grandparents didn't have the same opportunity as racism prevented black advancement, but that was their parents/grandparents not the individuals starting today.

How can it be fair and proper today for a 20 year old black person to get given advantages, based on race, over a 20 year old asian/latino/white person when they all come from similar neighborhoods with similar upbringings?

I don't think it reasonable to try and right the "centuries of wrong" now - to make it "whole" for the descendents of slaves etc - you could just as well argue that every black person in the US is materially better off than they would have been if their great great grandparents had been left in the Congo - an equally facile argument.

What you can do is try and ensure that in the here and now, racism is stamped out, not try a reverse racism with affirmative action and create another swathe of people who the State has wronged.

RoadWarriorFromLP

The problem with your perspective is that you presume that being white conveys no advantage. That's false -- centuries of dominance loaded up institutions with white males who control the strings and keep the money. Unfettered, their tendency will be to resort to cronyism, helping those who most resemble themselves, which perpetuates the caste system.

As a white person, you have an inherent advantage in this society, all things being equal. It may not rear itself in every circumstance in equal measure on every occasion, and that does not diminish the role that class also plays in the outcome -- it's not so, er, black and white as all that. But still, the predominant paradigm remains that being white will tend to get you better stuff and more money.

Contrary to your position, people don't generally have the same opportunities, irrespective of skin color, it's horribly naive to believe that they do. When getting ahead is based largely on who you know, then it helps to know those who can actually help you, and those people are predominantly white. The situation is improving, to be sure, and I do foresee a day when affirmative action can end, but passing a law and proclaiming the end of oppression did not, in and of itself, end it. Hopefully, the next generation will figure it out, but the current one in charge has not.

snowbunny

Are you implying that Hispanics are not also discriminated against?? It's certainly not just "African-Americans" and "everyone-else" ....

Leslie

Somebody is starting to get on my tits.

anotherlimey

Sorry I assumed you'd like it... <limey climbs down off Leslie's tits>

veryfunny

Just in case it was missed affirmative action, was brought into law for all minorities including Jews and Women. This fact always seems to get lost in these type of discussions.

Sally

Oh god I remember being in a room for a meeting at college and a black woman came in - the head of department said something like, "Do you want to collect the bins?" when she was a visiting lecturer - the dept head actually considered herself very up on race issues, it was interesting.

Sally

Yes there is a lot of ground to be made up.

One of the biggest drawbacks for people under-represented in any particular workforce is networking by existing workers. Breaking into a hallowed circle can be difficult.

YankeemovingAbroad

CB

Let me try to help you better understand racism whether it be in Europe or America and the responsibility we all can accept or refuse based on how important we value a health society.PG's experience with racism in the UK is valid just like many others like him, and you admited to not having a personal grasp of the type experience that he has endured,so its not surprising that you struggle to appreciate this situation.A life of experiences that has made him and others btw consider the drastic option of leaving the UK for a more progressive country such as Canada and the USA.

Now I know you think racism is the same or in your words worse in America because of the "racialization of allmost everything here.But what you view as a racialization, many others see as growing pains due to a changing nation and demographics of a society going from a unhealthy place to live to a nation that is becoming year by year a place deserving of our constitution.One of the basic rights of all Americans is the right to self determination.The ability to pursue a career and earn money to care for one's self and family is a vital component to maintain life not to mention having a job that adds to self esteme & worth.Those are very important to self determination.PG has passionately described how he has been more than forgiving in work inviroments where he was treated badly solely because of racism.His story is not unique for Blacks and Asians in the UK.I personally know other minorities from the UK who speak about the racial taunting and harassment they had to ignore in order to keep their employment.

One particular friend went to his supervisor to seek help in solving the problem and was actually told to stop being over sensative and that the "guys" were just having abit of fun.That is the difference between America and the UK. A person can achieve their financial dreams in the States as long as they are willing to do what is needed to succeed.Penalties for racial harrassment are much tougher in the States and employers know this all too well.That is important to cracking down on such behavior and cultivating a productive work inviroment.There are federal laws,state laws and civil rights groups in America to protect the rights of Americans.Who will protect the rights of UK minority employees when they can't get relief from a employer when the company turns a blind eye to racism? As you might know it is much tougher to prove racial prejudice in the UK work place because the criteria demanded is quite abit higher.Kinda like a catch 22.Personally,I think the laws in the UK were written like that on purpose to discourage law suits.

You mention how you don't see the point of having Black music shows and you feel this sends out the wrong message.Where did you get the idea that whites are not partiscipating in viewing these same "Black shows"? I think you are allowing labels stop you from seeing the bigger picture.And btw there have been "white" music shows such as Band Stand and The Lawrence Welsh show for years.I'm pretty sure the only complaint from African Americans about either show would had been specific to the quality of music and nothing about which ethnicity the entertainment is directed toward. In America you have the right to change the channel or turn the television off but what you don't have the right to is decide what others should be able to enjoy.What is wrong with having a Latino channel or a Polish station?Many people with a interest for variety might find that type programing very interesting.I never have understood why some people believe we all should try to be as similar to one another as possible.Difference really can be the spice of life, changing times and variety shouldn't be seen with a negative view point if you're open minded.

Role models is a interesting subject.I think who is a role model has more to do with generation than ethnicity.If you were to ask a person born in the 40's-50's they would be more likely to revere a person from their own ethnicity but younger people like who ever is bigger than life .If you ask most young black and white males I'm pretty sure michael Jordan or Ali would top their list.Not just because these two people are especially great but also because music,movies and great athletes and the arts in general has the incredible ability to change thinking on race,life and what we should value.40 years ago that would not have been true but America is a different country now.In regards to Affirmative action laws.Maybe you feel its not fair to newly arrived immigrants or to poor whites that women and minorities recieve certain protections under the law and I can appreciate that view point.However its not the fault of African Americans that the majority of Whites decided to create an inviroment in America and Europe for that matter which require federal laws to control the behavior of White Americans.Anti hate laws were put in place as a deterant to crime commited by a segment of the population who out numbered African Americans.Maybe if there had been similar type legislation in regards to the Native American they would not have been all most completely wiped out.

Keep in mind also that in Europe and America that women were considered the personal property of white men.Women had very little rights and because of Affirmative Action laws the female gender has seen its greatest success' in corporate America.If there were Affirmative Action laws along with Anti hate crime laws in the UK,I'm preety sure there would have been more grass root success in the minority population and less racial harrassment in the work place.FYI,there are all kinds of Affirmative Action laws in America but under different names.There are tax breaks for corporations and churchs and for universities and financial investors.If you attend a University and graduate,your children will be allowed to become admited as a legend even if their grades are marginal.Just ask George W. Bush who was Legended into Harvard and still was not able to perform up to standard but was push through any way because of his father's connections.Ever see this man speak the kings english with out butchering sentenses? What about the House of Lords in Parliment where people are given seats?What about neputism in many companies around the world when people are given jobs because of who they know and not due to their ability?The difference between those examples and women and minorities in America is mistreatment under the law.African Americans and women had to earn their protection from discrimination the hard way!

Sorry for the post being so long.

pgtips

YankeemovingAbroad , please do not apologise for the post being so long, as you have just spelled out the truth brilliantly. Thank You, I could not have put it any better.

pgtips

You have raised some good points, however until you are able to live in my skin you will never have a true appreciation of what it is like to be a black man in England, nor would I wish it on you.

As I said before sometimes the mental damage done is even worse than the physical damage.

Imagine after 20 years since I started driving my heart still times misses a beat if I see a police car behind me, because in the past that surely would have meant I was going to be stopped, maybe my car searched, and if I said the wrong thing could lead to me being taken down the station and getting a good kicking in !!! I don't think I have to spell out the amount of black men who have mysteriously died in police custody in the UK.

Imagine the indignity of being harassed by the police just for sitting in the car with your girlfriend one evening whilst having conversation outside her own house.

Police : Could you step out of the car
Me : Why
Police: We have just got notice that a car like this has been stolen in this area.
Me: If I had stolen it, why would I be sitting outside my girlfriends house in it for all to see.
Police: Can you prove it is yours ?
Me: Yes, and so can you just check it on your data base.
Police: What is your name:
Me: Give them my full name.
Police: Have you been drinking:
Me: No, But I am sitting in a stationary car outside my girlfriends house.
Police: Let us see you walk in a straight line
Me: I oblige
Police: What is your name again
Me: I saw you write it down already
Police: can you spell your name backwards

Girlfriend, screams at the top of her voice for all to here what do you think your playing at, what sort of police are you !!!

Me: very much on edge
Police: You can go now
Me: I was not going anywhere, just sitting peacefully outside my girlfreibnds house in my own car, paid with my hard earned money, minding my own business:

Another occasion

This time in one of Londons busiest shopping areas, Oxford Street.
My friend who works in accounts had treated himself to a newish car and had it nicely done up. So here we are suited and booted, fresh hair cuts, nice smelling after shave, young, handsome and successful, life could not be better................. or so you would think......

All of a sudden we are swooped on by about 20 police officers, surrounded by their cars and vans, and told to get out of the vehicle and stand up against a wall with our hands in the air and our backs to them.

They then search through all our pockets, search the car, even removing a couple of panels.

Now this indignity is happening in front of hoardes of shoppers in one of the busiest streets in the world.

After they found nothing, they just said you can go now, NO APOLOGY !!! Just a note that they were looking for drugs.

Our crime, being young black men driving around in a nice car, well dressed and groomed. SO WE MUST BE DRUG DEALERS !!!!

Lets move on to what it is like being a young black man in England.
You enter a shop and all the shop keepers eyes are on you, because they are convinced you are about to steal something, so you just have miserable shopping experiences !!!

Lets move on to whats its like being a young black man in England.
You are newly married and are ready to rent an apartment, you call the owner because it is local and arrange to meet him there in 30 minutes.
You get there early with your wife and ring the door bell.
The white owner takes one look at you and says the apartment is no longer for rent !!!

You go to view an apartment in Putney which is for sale.
The owner is keen to sell, you like the apartment so offer the full asking price and he accepts. Bingo, you are elated, finally on the property ladder oh so you thought !!! The next day the agent phones you and say's there is a problem, whilst viewing one of the other owners in the block saw us, and before any new person can move in the block it has to go through the tenants association. They told the owner, that they would block the sale to me, as they did not want that sort moving in.

I went to see the apartment after work in a smart suit, but as long as my face was black they would block the purchase.

Or what about when you turn up for the interview and as soon as you get that limp handshake you know you have not got the job, whatever your experience or qualifications.

Do you know what it feels like having to eat lunch alone, whilst other members of your team are giggling the lunch hour away on a separate table, or being wary of going to certain areas, unsure of weather you will be welcomed. It was not that long ago, that we were not welcomed at certain hotels and restaurants, and still some nightclubs are a no no.

I hope now you may see why I would not wish this on you, and believe me I have just touched the tip of the iceberg.

You question affirmative action, I recommend you read the story of Rosa Parks and Dr Martin Luther King jnr, and then after come back and tell me whether you still question affirmative action ?

YankeemovingAbroad

PGtips

Thank you!!

anotherlimey

It's not that much different in many parts of the US.